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Wednesday, February 13, 2008


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Why Bother

Kim du Toit
February 13, 2008
7:22 AM CDT

The non-lawyer half of the InstaCouple says this:

“Nowadays, for many men, the negatives of marriage for men often outweigh the positives. Therefore, they engage in it less often. Not because they are bad, not because they are perpetual adolescents, but because they have weighed the pros and cons of marriage in a rational manner and found the institution to be lacking for them.”

I think women don’t understand how clinical men can be when it comes to analyzing a relationship. (Note: just because we don’t talk about our relationship with you, doesn’t mean we don’t analyze it.)

Here’s how I explain it. I think that men keep a running ledger going in their subconscious—all the good/great things about their relationship on the one side, and all the bad/terrible things on the other. At some point or another, if the perceived negatives outweigh the positives, the man will quit the relationship—I mean, just bail out of the whole thing—and usually with a swiftness and finality which confounds women.

Because we’re guys, we don’t talk about this much—even, or especially with other men, and hardly ever with women. But it’s a plain fact.

Now, because we’re guys, certain things have a disproportionate effect on both the good and bad things: on the good side, sex, food and shared interests being probably the best examples; on the bad, infidelity, constant nagging and invasion of privacy constitute the negative. The degree of each, good or bad, will vary among individual men, of course. Some men will put up with almost anything if the sex is of the “bed on fire” variety, for instance, while others will walk out of a relationship for something as trifling as compulsory weekly visits to Mom (hers).

Frankly, it doesn’t matter what these things are. What’s important is that they are each weighed, and applied to the ledger. And when the negatives consistently outweigh the positives, the man will say (to himself), “You know what? This isn’t worth the hassle. The hell with it.”

And once that decision is made, the relationship is over. Now, it may take a long time for all that to happen. Men are not accounting machines, and this is not a daily, or even a regular process. But it takes place in every man, sooner or later, when the negatives get too much to live with.

What’s interesting about all this is that as men grow older, the process becomes a lot quicker—mostly, it should be said, because younger men can put up with almost anything if they’re getting laid. As men get older and sex becomes less important, however, the “bullshit” factor and the tolerance thereof become more important.

I am not interested, incidentally, in hearing the female side of this. The topic is “why men are putting off getting married”. Here’s why.

All the great advantages of the women’s liberation movement have created an environment which, frankly, does not leave men with much. We can’t flirt with women at school, college or at the office anymore, because one man’s “flirting” has become another woman’s “sexual harassment” and the punishments for such transgressions are not only severe, they’re permanent—crippling a man’s career and prospects thereof.

When a woman can get pregnant outside wedlock, and still hound a man forever for child support (with the enthusiastic support of the State), is it any wonder that men, even though ruled by their sex drive, might actually step back a little and think with their heads? And once married, if a divorce becomes a later reality, he stands a real risk of losing access to his kids forever, because if Milady is feeling vengeful—and most do, in a divorce—the merest suggestion of “endangerment” or “violence”, and he is completely screwed, forever, even if the allegation is a complete falsehood.

I am not denying, by the way, that men have brought a lot of this on themselves. But remember, men are more clinical about relationships than women are. It is an absolutely certainty that men read all the news about some guy losing his right to own a gun just because a spiteful ex-wife filed a nonsensical claim of “abuse”, or guys getting ruined because of an intemperate offhand comment at the office, or even, good grief, getting hit up for child support after having been an anonymous sperm donor—and ask: ”Looks like the rules are all in her favor. Remind me: what’s in this ‘marriage’ thing for me , again?

And the fact that women have become more sexually liberated doesn’t help matters. The old saw is true: why would a man go to the trouble of buying, stabling and feeding a cow, when milk’s available at the supermarket?

Remember: the early post-adolescent years are the time in men’s lives when they are most ruled by their sex drive. If the drive can be constantly sated by willing women, can anyone be surprised that when the sex drive starts to fade in importance, men look at all the other parts of a relationship, and find that the game just isn’t worth the hassle?

At ages 19 to about 27, men are at their most vulnerable for marriage, because the nice thing about married sex is not that it’s necessarily great, but that it’s pretty much always available, without too much work involved.

But if during those early years women don’t get their hooks into a man soon enough, the job becomes progressively harder as the man ages. So if women spend those early adult years building themselves a career and “fulfilling themselves” at the expense of getting married, they will find that when they do finally want to settle down and get married, men are no longer as welcoming as they were before.

And the foundations of all that were put down when women tried to stop men from being like men. Even with sex involved, men will always apply “The Ledger” to a relationship. Without sex, men are, quite simply, unwilling to put up with all the shit that a woman brings to the party. And when men feel that the dice are constantly loaded against them, they’ll simply refuse to play the game, at all.

None of this, incidentally, applies to the lucky men and women who found their soulmates—but I have to tell you, life isn’t much like the deliriously-happy couples on eHarmony.com. For every blissful couple in the ads, there are literally millions for whom a relationship is not a joy, but a wearisome chore.

What feminism hath wrought is simple: if men are to treat women as equals, then they will treat them like men—or at best, they will not treat them like women.

One more time: I’m not interested in hearing The Other Side Of The Story from women. We’ve heard little else for the past thirty years. The question was: why are men getting married later, if at all?

This post is the answer, and women should not be shocked by its conclusions.

The saddest part of this is that all things being equal, most men actually enjoy being married, and look forward to it. It’s nice to have someone to come home to, someone with whom you can just be yourself, and someone to share the wonderful joys of having kids. And don’t kid yourselves, the sex is great. A buddy of mine, married to his childhood sweetheart for over twenty years, put it to me this way: “A lot of the time, the sex [between longtime marrieds] is fine, or just so-so. But every once in a while, it’s fantastic, tremendous, brilliant, and better than you could ever ever get from a stranger.”

The men who are resisting being married are cutting themselves off from all this—and women should ask themselves why this is the case, without resorting to the “men are just refusing to grow up” bullshit. They’re not refusing to grow up: this is the reaction to the constant belittlement and the infantilizing treatment they’ve been exposed to all their lives.




Comments

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  1. A subtle hint for women complaining about this and similar articles:
    Wag more
    Bark less

    You’ll find it works wonders

    robert in england | 2/13/2008 07:28 AM CDT | #112853
  2. Men will always get the short end of the stick in the double standard world of “equal rights”.

    Apeman | 2/13/2008 07:32 AM CDT | #112854
  3. “A lot of the time, the sex [between longtime marrieds] is fine, or just so-so. But every once in a while, it’s fantastic, tremendous, brilliant, and better than you could ever ever get from a stranger.”

    This doesn’t even BEGIN to paint the picture. Sometimes- frankly, more than enough of the time, it’s nearly fatally incredible.

    A great post. And one that is gonna tip the scales with the Pussification essay, I bet.

    og | 2/13/2008 07:35 AM CDT | #112855
  4. Kim,

    You and I got LUCKY - we found women who both respect OUR brains, whether the bodies deserve respect any longer or not! They also seem to enjoy the same activities, by and large, as we do - shooting, old movies, history, and old novels, on your side, and all those, plus sci-fi and model railroading over here. And, Sandy’s a data wonky nerd like I am, too.

    Unfortunately, we seem to be in a VERY SMALL MINORITY. Most guys our ages (I’m 56), in second-or-later marriages (it took me THREE TRIES to get it right!), don’t find rare gifts like this!

    I guess our shortcomings in other departments (overweight, less-than-independently-wealthy, not exactly Cary Grant-like looks) are made up for in just plain good luck. Lord knows, I suck at gambling! How are YOU at poker?

    The Mad Yank | 2/13/2008 08:08 AM CDT | #112860
  5. Right on target, as usual. These are the reasons I luckily avoided marrying what would have been my first two ex-wives. Unfortunately, for someone who wanted to get married like myself, the pickings get mighty slim after 30. A buddy used to joke that all women over thirty come pre-pissed. I finally found the perfect women for me when I was nearly forty. Ten years later, life is great.

    louis | 2/13/2008 08:12 AM CDT | #112861
  6. I sure wish I could find something about which to disagree. But I can’t.

    All I’ll add, for the sake of the NoR who are still happy, er, single, if the right girl comes along, run, don’t walk, in the other direction.

    It’s just not worth it. Trust me on this one…

    Well, except the kids. There *is* something to be said for that…

    Jay G | 2/13/2008 08:17 AM CDT | #112864
  7. HUZZAH!

    Would that I had something intelligent to add.  But no.  Being a single man in his late 30s who’s specialized in being someone worth being (and therefore hopefully one worth being with) I can absolutely validate every word of this (with the unfortunate exception of the bits about actually being married, of course.)

    And while optimism is in short supply I’m out there, still looking, fool that I am.

    MadWilliamFlint | 2/13/2008 08:27 AM CDT | #112868
  8. “bed on fire”

    please where can I get that before it’s too late???

    BadLover | 2/13/2008 08:30 AM CDT | #112870
  9. Can’t argue the premise, Kim. I’ll offer a piece of advice from my dad that has served me well:

    “You have to like married life, and you have to like—not just love, but like—your wife.”

    A lot of the “ledger” Kim describes is subsumed in that.

    MiddleAgedKen | 2/13/2008 08:31 AM CDT | #112873
  10. Robert in England

    Succinctly put, sir, succinctly put!  We are kindred spirits. 

    On the serious side, I lost my wife some time ago, but I still have the best part of married life - my four children are a constant wonder to me. They’re all adults now,but when I talk with them I picture their pink-faced innocence as toddlers soaking up life like a dry sponge. For you men who are afraid of marriage, or at least wary, children make your life!  From the moment I held my first-born in my arms, I knew my orbit had changed permanently.  Joyous.  Try it.

    IrishEyes | 2/13/2008 08:33 AM CDT | #112876
  11. Aye I’m happy to Robert.  Just not happy enough to compromise on some basics.

    MadWilliamFlint | 2/13/2008 08:37 AM CDT | #112877
  12. Sigh, during the dark ages the early Church really had to work at getting the concept of marriage across to the newly converted barbarians.  It was a problem because there were just too many bastards running around with insufficent financial and emotional support, especially those of the tribal leaders.  So they put a lot of ceremony, God Wants It, and legal requirements into the concept of marriage for economic reasons as much as anything else. 

    And now in this modern liberated age we don’t have to worry about that any more.  The government will take care of the bastards if any.  oh oh

    toad | 2/13/2008 08:41 AM CDT | #112882
  13. Two sorts of women can be readily trusted, one at each end of the age scale.

    When young, a man can open up, reasonably confidently, to a tomboy or better still, a semi-retired tomboy (I hope it is the same term on both sides of the Pond). She has had, probably still has, her horses and her other physical pursuits - one hopes including shooting - and along the way has collected a bruise or two and maybe even a break.

    This lass appreciates manliness, because she has been there but now she wants to be a woman, and particularly relishes being a lady. She can be hard to live up to, but is usually well worth the effort.

    In my 50s now, I discover the retired feminist, especially the type who bought into the myth that a man should be a wimp, an almost-woman, that the sexes are barely distinguishable and men should be feminised.

    It is astonishing how many men bought into this, and how destructive they are to women. Then, with middle age looming. the women realise at last that a man who is like your worst “girlfriend” is a complete waste of oxygen. Finally - if they can find one: at my age there are more good women on the loose than good men - they discover with relief the pleasures of a masculine, protective man who will worship them for their femininity, and who they can appreciate for his manliness. A little late, but better late than never: a lot of us Boomers will go to our graves having never cracked this fundamental secret.

    Jeff Wood | 2/13/2008 08:43 AM CDT | #112884
  14. I was surprised to learn that fully 2/3rds of divorces are initiated by women.  big surprise  Thanks to no-fault divorce laws, men are essentially handing their balls to women to crush any time they want, and all too often, the woman does so. That certainly doesn’t add to a man’s willingness to marry.

    Here is a reference to that little fact, plus more interesting facts about divorce from Discovery Health.

    EWTHeckman | 2/13/2008 08:54 AM CDT | #112885
  15. I think that’s all absolutely true, and demonstrates the problem with making all of your life decisions solely on the basis of personal benefit or detriment. We all know that marriage is a social construct. It certainly has personal benefits for both parties--but its larger function is social. It’s about promoting stability, raising children, and so forth. Men married to get laid, certainly, when that was the only (socially acceptable) way they could do so--but they also got married because that’s what men did at a certain point. All of them. It was a rite of passage, and it wasn’t a question of what any particular individual wanted to do with his life.

    There are good things to be said for being able to break free of that stranglehold, and pursue your happiness on a personal and idiosyncratic level. But there’s a downside as well.

    There was a good article on this in City Journal recently. And I blogged in response to it just a few days ago: Agathon

    aordover | 2/13/2008 08:59 AM CDT | #112887
  16. Amen, brother! Preach on!

    I’ve said it before elsewhere and I’ll say it again here: the male of the species is far savvier and aware of relationship dynamics than Cosmo and its ilk would have you believe.

    Bryce | 2/13/2008 09:00 AM CDT | #112888
  17. Divorce, settlements, child support, visitation, who gets the kids on alternating even Sundays?, alimony, dads, step siblings, restraining orders, family court, hearings, and on and on.

    Why would a young man starting out not have the shit scared out him with all that crap?

    Shooter1001 | 2/13/2008 09:05 AM CDT | #112892
  18. A-freakin’-men, Kim.  Second marriage here, and it’s on the plus side of the ledger.  But if something happens to my sweetie, I’ll not be doing this again.  Too damn much work for returns that get smaller as the years go on.

    tkdkerry | 2/13/2008 09:12 AM CDT | #112893
  19. I’ll agree with “the Ledger” idea (I never called it that, but I have one), but will note that on the plus side is my belief that sans kids, marriage (and Life) is pretty pointless. My parents divorced when I was in my teens, and I would sooner drown myself in the kitchen sink than shatter my kids’ world like that.

    jimbob86 | 2/13/2008 09:48 AM CDT | #112909
  20. It can take surprising little effort for a woman to completely erase all the negative entries in a man’s ledger.  (well, at least for me.) A little attention, a little respect, a little of that married heart stopping sex thing (it’s real!), a little food that she prepared especially for him, a little “thank you” for doing what he does for her.  Any one of those things at the right time does wonders and leaves him wondering why there were any negatives at all.

    Second marriage here.  10 years now and looking forward to the next 60 (what can I say?  I’m an optimist at heart). 

    I wish every man could be so lucky.

    pdwalker | 2/13/2008 09:56 AM CDT | #112911
  21. I’ve managed to get through two divorces relatively unscathed.

    Now that I’m closing in on 50 and own a house, the likelihood of me risking my house and retirement my getting married again grows slimmer by the day.

    Rustmeister | 2/13/2008 09:56 AM CDT | #112912
  22. I’m 41 and once-divorced.  My ex and I parted on relatively genial terms, so I am not embittered by the divorce process.

    However, I really don’t see any advantage to remarrying.  I have a slew of great friends who share my interests.  My free time is just that: MINE.  I enjoy dating different women and getting to know them for their varied qualities.  And I enjoy not having to buy the cow.

    RightIsRight | 2/13/2008 10:00 AM CDT | #112913
  23. A-Men to that one Kim!

    I think this post just hit a game winning grandslam and will be commonly referenced in the future!

    Frigate | 2/13/2008 10:02 AM CDT | #112914
  24. Right on the button, Kim.

    “The Ledger” is real.  But the one positive entry that may delay “the end” forever is . . . the kids.

    The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    The Little Coach | 2/13/2008 10:12 AM CDT | #112916
  25. One of your best. Clear, honest, unflinching.

    USMC-1983 | 2/13/2008 10:28 AM CDT | #112920
  26. I think AORDOVER made a good point as well.  One of the reasons marriage is declining is that the social pressure for men to marry has nearly disappeared.  There were times not that long ago when a single man in his 40’s was considered an object of pity, or was the subject of whispered rumors of homosexuality.  Coupled with that is the fact that men can now get most of the benefits of marriage without the burden, so why would they incur the burdens? 

    The downside is cultural and generational, though:  As Steyn has pointed out, fewer children are being produced, at least partly because people are putting off getting married and having kids.  Fewer kids = fewer workers in the future when we’re all too old to take care of ourselves.  The inevitable result is not pretty:  Either the economy starts contracting because there are fewer people working, buying things and paying taxes, or we start importing workers from somewhere else (which we’ve been doing for years, and we know the results of that.)

    So, as individuals, it is understandable that men are tending to prolong adolescence, because for them as individuals, there’s no downside to it.  But for American culture and society, there’s a significant downside.  It really would be to our benefit to start encouraging men and women to marry earlier and have more children, but in the current political and social climate of “nonjudgment” I just don’t see it happening, unfortunately.  oh oh

    Staff Martin | 2/13/2008 10:29 AM CDT | #112921
  27. Amen, Kim.  Rings true to this 33-y-o never married professional.

    Staff,
    Yep.  Soon the only ones left will be Mormons, Mexicans, and Muslims.

    Gino | 2/13/2008 10:42 AM CDT | #112925
  28. Excellent post.  My beloved wife of 30 years recently passed away, and I can’t even imagine getting married again, for all the reasons stated.

    outlander03 | 2/13/2008 10:47 AM CDT | #112927
  29. Part of the situation is that marriage requires a great deal of abstraction and idealization - you live tunneling through the reality, toward the ideal.  In the long era of gender-determined social roles there always was some mystery, even if the whole clan slept in the same big hut.  Nowadays so many roles and tasks are androgynous (and no, it’s not necessarily feminism that’s to blame) that there seems to be very little sense of “it’s bigger than both of us.” Indeed I suspect guys nowadays would be more choked up by the oath of enlistment than by marriage vows.

    ..

    stencil | 2/13/2008 10:48 AM CDT | #112928
  30. Kim,
    A great piece of writing- which if if ever read by the usual socialist idiots will certainly be vilified as troglodytic.
    I agree with the Little Coach.  I am staying on because I love my kids, and in fact probably still love my wife.  She can’t understand that I didn’t marry her because I wanted a mommy, or a homemaker, a gardener, or an interior decorator. As a private in an Airborne Division I learned how to clean, wash my own clothes, live neatly and take care of myself- I don’t need a nanny.  I know how to cook.  I asked my lover to marry me, without specifically articulating that I loved her and wanted her to stay with me as my lover forever- I did expect to become a father and be the primary breadwinner.  But I am not interested in a platonic relationship with my wife, and the things that she places all of her energy and emphasis on are not important enough for me to even discuss- i.e. I don’t care what color the walls are. When the kids are grown, the bills are paid off, we will only have in common our kids, and there will then be no reason to stay with her.  The ledger is full of negatives with only our kids as positives.

    JimBob

    JimBob7 | 2/13/2008 11:00 AM CDT | #112933
  31. Right now I have a flu bug going, and I would love to have someone to take of me right now.  As a guy, I hate being vulnerable, but a sick man seems to transform a healthy woman into “Supernurse”.  Especially the non-married and childless women. Kim, I seriously envy what you and your wife have.  I’m 42, and I feel like my only chance will be to save a lot of money, and “send for” a bride. 

    Kim, it being so near to the heart-themed Hallmark holiday, I would really enjoy the story of how you and Tech Support met and got together.

    Keeping it short--flu meds are affecting my brain.  Any more confused and fevered and I’d have join the Kucinich campaign. confused

    Antibubba | 2/13/2008 11:02 AM CDT | #112935
  32. Just in, to help verify the “men are clinical” claim:
    News BBC

    Make sure and read the formula for picking up a girl. Perhaps Kim can devise a similar equation around the marriage question.

    drummermanrick | 2/13/2008 11:20 AM CDT | #112942
  33. I am one fortunate enough to have a wife that treats me like a man and allows me to treat her like a woman, and oh do I love her for it!

    gr4p34p3 | 2/13/2008 11:23 AM CDT | #112943
  34. Unfortunately, Antibubba, Kim and I have been suffering with (probably) the same flu bug.  Three weeks ago it was a cold that quickly turned to bronchitis (Kim first, then me), but I was out of town on a biz trip for the worst of his.

    Then, just about the time our prescriptions for the bronchitis were finished (which we blamed for the icky/nauseous feelings) we realized we had acquired some sort of flu bug.

    We’ve been sick for THREE weeks.  So, while the normal rule about wives turning into nurses is true, we’ve both been unable to nurture the other, except for rare exceptions when one of us has enough energy to walk.

    This is the time when adult kids come in really handy.  Daughter has been nursemaid and doing all the shopping/errands and baby brother chauffeuring (as well as doing his chores and keeping the house going), and bringing food to her starving and miserable parents.

    There was a time when I worried about that girl… but some where/time she turned into an angel… and is (to quote an Chinese expression) “a pearl in the hand.”

    Connie du Toit | 2/13/2008 11:29 AM CDT | #112945
  35. Thank you Kim this should be required reading for all men,i have seen so many of my friends marrige’s go wrong over the years and as i came to the decision a long time ago that i did not want kids “i remember too well what a monster i was” and did not want to put myself through the same, like Antibubba each time i am unwell i find myself thinking it would be nice to have someone to look after me but i recover and remember the benefits of being single give myself a shake and go shooting.

    ajdshootist | 2/13/2008 11:31 AM CDT | #112946
  36. As someone who was once married and long since divorced, no kids, and possessed of precisely the lack of any slobbering desire to have another go described above, my reaction to Kim’s analysis is exactly that of Otto Preminger, after directing himself in his scenes as Nazi POW camp commandant in Stalag 17:

    Cut. Print. Brilliant!

    There is also a ruthless state-instituted calculus to the whole arrangement:
    It takes two people to be married.
    It takes only one to be divorced.

    Society cannot beat those odds, try though its members may, and despite any random anecdotal successes of individual pairs.

    The state can fix that, or else stop bothering us about it.

    Aesop Mysleeve | 2/13/2008 11:36 AM CDT | #112947
  37. It is surprising how very accurate this post is.  I’m approaching 27 rapidly, and my patience for some of the bullshit games women play has dropped off at an exponential rate for years now.  Just thought I’d throw in my two cents of agreement.

    Adam Lawson | 2/13/2008 12:10 PM CDT | #112956
  38. Just remember, you younger guys out there. No matter how good she looks, long legs that go from the floor all the way up to her ass, nice firm breasts that stand at attention like a Legionnaire, short skirt, hi heels and a lo lo cut top with a look that says she can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch there’s some poor bastard in a dumpy dirty apartment she hasn’t cleaned, ever, laundry piled everywhere, stale food all over and dozens of empty beer cans too. He’s just one more bitch from tellin her to GTF out and take her 2 bratty little rug rats with her!

    Shooter1001 | 2/13/2008 12:29 PM CDT | #112962
  39. Amen, brother!  As a never-married 60 y-o, I am often asked by women “how come you never got married?” My preferred response would be along the lines of “what the @%&*!!% makes that any of your business?”, but as a courteous, polite, old-fashioned male, my actual response is:  “Just lucky, I guess.” That tends to end the questioning.

    bigranvil | 2/13/2008 12:31 PM CDT | #112963
  40. OK, so there is agreement about the reasons.

    How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    Folks aren’t even replacing themselves, let alone increasing our population in the way we should.

    Have too many people bought into the “the earth is too populated” nonsense?

    Connie du Toit | 2/13/2008 12:34 PM CDT | #112964
  41. None of the underlying causes matter.  If women decide to wait until marriage, men will get motivated to marry.

    princewally | 2/13/2008 12:41 PM CDT | #112967
  42. How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/13/2008 02:34 PM EDT | #112964

    ----

    Having an economy that will permit the average guy to support a family on one income will go a long way toward relieving the stresses associated with marriage.

    Shooter1001 | 2/13/2008 12:53 PM CDT | #112972
  43. An excellent piece. I have nothing to add about the main body of the piece, just an observation- in my experience the only women interesting enough to spend time with as *people* (as opposed to pleasurable objects) have all been current or former tomboys.

    I suspect they’re the only ones left who have made any effort to understand men and appreciate their positive qualities. Everyone else has absorbed the active disdain for men and masculine qualities that is so pervasive in our culture. I’ve never had trouble finding desirable relationship partners, and I am not exactly a Casanova. But I can’t stand girly-girls and prefer women I can talk to- and I (luckily for me) have never objected to tomboys. And when they do want to discover their feminine side, it’s amazing what just a little encouragement can get you. wink

    Life is too short (or too long, either would apply) to spend it with someone you don’t *like*.

    Greg | 2/13/2008 01:00 PM CDT | #112973
  44. soon to be 38 and unmarried.

    I have only found one woman in my life whose ledger balance tempted me.

    She made it clear, there was no need as she didn’t Love me, only loved me.  A distinction I’m still not sure I understand.  But I am a firm believer in direct honesty and certainly better before than after and better honest then having her use the uneven levels of feeling against me.  So I give her credit for integrity.

    At this point, I rather doubt that I will ever marry.  Shame, because I know I would be a great husband and/or a great father. 

    I completely agree with pdwalker. 
    I don’t need a whole lot. 
    Show me appreciation when I go out of my way to be romantic.  Don’t DEMAND it.
    Give me a hug and kiss me when I notice your oil needs changing and tires rotated and I do it. 
    Smile and thank me when I get up early on Sunday and (quietly) make apple cinnamon stuffed french toast, scrambled eggs and bacon with fresh squeezed orange juice to go along with your morning cup of coffee and the paper.  Maybe even notice and comment that you were able to sleep in because I fed the dog and kept her out of your bedroom until you were ready to get up.

    Maybe its just the proximity to Singles Awareness Day (Feb 14th).  But just like that day, it seems like the deck is stacked against males.  We need to do something dramatic / over the top romantic or we are castigated as brutes, but all the women need to do is buy us a card, give us a kiss and hint that IF our gift / plan is good, we will get “special” bedroom access. 

    Not exactly helping the ledger balance and I am only shooting for the 70 percent solution.

    Precision | 2/13/2008 01:00 PM CDT | #112974
  45. How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    I don’t think you can.  It’s a Pandora’s Box.  With birth control it became possible to de-couple sex from marriage.  In days past, a couple girls would get pregnant and sent off to the bad girls school, scaring the rest enough to minimize the appeal of single promiscuity and encourage marriage as a safe outlet for the natural desires.  People got married at 18-20 and in the natural course had babies and joined the community.

    Now men and women engage in serial promiscuity until the women hit their 30s and then, like a switch, the biological clock starts ticking and they demand that men change and form families with them.  Trouble is that for men (1) the biological clock hasn’t hit so they aren’t motivated to change; and (2) the madonna/whore complex is ingrained, so the type of promiscuous woman they wanted to date is not the type of woman they want to marry, and the latter pools has shrunk almost to nothing these days. 

    When you throw on top of this an economy that routinely requires people to move (breaking up communities) and a legal system that dramatically raises the costs of marriage for men (no fault divorce), you get what we have today - a sea of individuals with little or no connection to family or society.

    The only way to change this would be to make promiscuity “costly” again, especially for females (the gatekeepers of sex).  But there is zero political will to do this, so it will not happen.  In the end, America faces the fate of mythical Atlantis - a great society destroyed because it discovered a power (control over reproduction) it did not have the wisdom to use.

    happycynic | 2/13/2008 01:03 PM CDT | #112975
  46. There’s no social pressure without there being society. And that’s what’s missing, I think. What are young men a part of, these days? To what do they feel as though the belong, and owe a debt to (if only a debt to pick something up and carry it and pass it along)? The military, for those who are a part of it. But beyond that?

    aordover | 2/13/2008 01:06 PM CDT | #112976
  47. Reading a couple of other comments reminded me of something, a quote (I have to paraphrase):

    “No matter how hot the woman, you always have to remember that somewhere is a guy who is sick of that.”

    And he’s sick of it for a *reason*.

    Greg | 2/13/2008 01:08 PM CDT | #112977
  48. Finding the right woman to marry is almost like finding a suitable politician: the only people suitable for the job aren’t particularly fond of accepting the position, but do so out of a profound sense of duty and/or love.

    Me, I’ve found such a woman, and what a wonderful woman she is. If she were to pass before me (not bloody likely, barring an accident or act of God), and I wasn’t an old geezer by that time, it’s very unlikely I’d remarry - just find some young play thing, if anything at all. My wife has already provided us with two wonderful children, and there’d be no replacing, or substituting for her.

    Ubuntu | 2/13/2008 01:11 PM CDT | #112978
  49. Excellent Post! And exactly what I have been doing for the last 30 years. I have seen repeatedly all the ridiculous and terrible things that have happened to other men out there and this has contined to be reinforced my entire life.

    Paul "No Fear" Weir | 2/13/2008 01:12 PM CDT | #112980
  50. Just an un-thought-out theory here, but anyhow. . .

    I uspsect that a lot of what makes “Western Civilization” civilized got subsumed into religion - not so much because it belonged there, but becuase “god said so” was the most straightforward and reliable method of ensuring that it got done ofen enough.

    With the decline in devout, active, religous participation too many people are discarding what they see as the trappings of religion, when what they’re really discarding are the foundation blocks of our civilization itself.

    Until we can and do make the effort to identify and extract those elements from religion, and then repackage them as societal elements, things will continue to get worse, and probably at an ever-increasing rate.  With its focus on effects, the government’s solutions always manage to miss the causes and of course create new problems as well.

    David | 2/13/2008 01:17 PM CDT | #112981
  51. Brilliant post.

    I’ve been married for 25 years now, and I still *do* love my wife.  And I’m happy being married to her, even with the compromises.

    Not that she doesn’t compromise, too - I recall reading, somewhere, that for a marriage to last that both parties need to be willing to give at least 60% of the time.  And, many times both will honestly believe that they are giving way many more times than the other realizes.

    The point is, that after all this time there are still things that are important to her that I have to remind myself to do because they just aren’t important to me, except that they make her happy.  There are times I need to remind her that at least half of the things she does “for me” are really, mostly, hers.  And that she sometimes ignores the things that are important to me in favor of the things she thinks (or hopes) should be important.

    Despite occasional grumbles and ongoing minor adjustments, I think we’re happy to be married to each other.  I know I am!  But she’s got history and a large store of good will laid up with me (and, I hope, I have with her).  I can’t imagine giving as freely to anyone else.

    If something were to happen to her - or, almost as bad, to our marriage - I’d be very, very, reluctant to ever consider marrying again, for just the reasons you lay out.

    Javahead | 2/13/2008 01:18 PM CDT | #112982
  52. Precision- I’ve seen that loved/Loved distinction before.

    Yes, she loved you, but she didn’t feel that Romantic idolization that screamed in her heart “he’s the One”. She has bought into the Romantic love foolishness to an unhealthy degree and is not willing to settle for Mr. Good, when she has been taught that she must find Mr. Perfect.

    Well either that, or, no offense, the other way I’ve seen that distinction used is as a polite way of saying you fail to sufficiently arouse her. (How do you “just friend” someone you’ve already slept with and are already in a relationship with? That’s how.)

    Greg | 2/13/2008 01:18 PM CDT | #112983
  53. Connie, we start by killing communists that want to destroy the nuclear family then tell the socialists they’re next. A lot of the government/political aggrevators would be removed by that.

    Once that has begun, we become more tolerant of the James Dobsons and Pat Robertsons of the world and less tolerant of the “entertainment industry”.

    Then we shun and ostrasize dead beat parents.

    I’m not saying any of that will be easy but killing commies will be fun.

    JimBob, that’s about the most depressing thing I’ve read all week. Sorry to hear it.

    arkythehun | 2/13/2008 01:20 PM CDT | #112984
  54. Have too many people bought into the “the earth is too populated” nonsense?

    For me it’s the expense of having to raise a tribe, and give them a decent start in life. I suspect others look at those same economics as well.

    og | 2/13/2008 01:36 PM CDT | #112986
  55. Kim, this is right on.  I have to say that I heard about the ‘Ledger’ from a friend about 20 years ago.  I’ve never discussed it with anyone but him and thought it a rather unique way to judge a relationship and every one I’ve been in has had a tally sheet in my brain.  My friend’s step-father talked about relationships and told the following story. 

    “Charlie” had been a firefighter and worked a few days on and a few days off.  He was married to a smoking hot blonde and all the other firefighters used to tell him how lucky he was.  Charlie was polite and would say thanks, but never got excited about it.  What made Charlie excited was seeing another firefighter’s wife who was ‘average’ and brought him his favorite meal for every shift, franks and beans.  Charlie divorced his wife, left the fire dept. and married again and one day was asked what ever happened and how he could say he wasn’t happy with the hot blonde.  Charlie stated that she was never there for him and he is happy with his new bride as, no matter what, he always gets his franks and beans.  (condensed “Wag more. Bark Less")

    I think that the mix of a lot of things you touch on here are accurate for a lot of men.  A lot of guys went to one well, including me, about 20 years ago.  Well, I came up with the short straw at the state test.  If the kid is mine, I want all the rights of being a father, right?  Yeah, right.  I was abusive, a cheat, blah, blah… State says, ‘you gotta pay for those rights.’ And pay I have.  My oldest will be 20 in a few days.  I’m still paying the state and will be for a few more.  It put me off of dating for years and marriage as well.  Lucky for an open mind I met a wonderful and forgiving woman.  Too many plusses to count but those few negatives can loom large on the tough days.  I’m not big on franks and beans but she does cook fresh veggies a few times a week (and likes to shoot her 20 ga.).

    Again, an excellent post.  I’ll share this with a few of the young men in my office before they take the plunge.

    Brutus | 2/13/2008 01:56 PM CDT | #112988
  56. there are still things that are important to her that I have to remind myself to do because they just aren’t important to me, except that they make her happy.

    This is important. Until you (not you, the author of the quote--just the general “you") starts thinking that what makes someone else happy is important to you--and, more, is a component of your own personal happiness--there is no point to marriage...or hope for it.

    aordover | 2/13/2008 02:07 PM CDT | #112990
  57. Kim:

    I am a 64-year-old that was married the first time to a screamer for 7 of the worst years of my life.  I stuck around so long because no one in my family had ever divorced, so it wasn’t on my social horizon.  I left my first love, the Marine Corps---resigned my hard-earned Regular commission---to come back to the ‘States and try to patch things up. It didn’t work.

    I was lucky enough to find and marry the love of my life---a tomboy NOLS graduate, backpacker, technical climber, kyaker, rough weather sailor, sometime downhill ski bum, and one-time professional Nordic ski guide in Yellowstone, who still shoots occasionally, knows that I like to, and humors my desire for guns and motorcycles---and we are closing in on 30 years of happy marriage.  She spent a number of years with me as an Armor company commander’s wife in Germany,which is where our now-grownup daughter was born.

    But, sadly, all of the guys I know and spend time with are either divorced or in marriages where they are miserable most of the time.  I subscribe to everything you wrote.

    As a career military guy, however, I have spent a total of 9 years and change outside of the U.S., and I can certify that in some other cultures in other countries women are still free to be women, prefer to be so, and they accomplish that by wanting their men to be men.  If you are striking out here, look elsewhere.

    Mustang | 2/13/2008 02:29 PM CDT | #112992
  58. Greg,

    Yes I understand the Love/love thing in the abstract.  I realize that she was saying that something didn’t add up to “butterflies” for her.  But butterflies are an abstact BS sensation brought on by too many cheesy romance novels, that GOES AWAY (or at least loses its impact) over time.  Being best friends, loving each other, fitting comfortably into each others lives and both sides having the “more wag, very little bark” is what the long term is about.

    Like I said.  I am looking (would be elated to find) the 70% solution.  She is looking for the 98% solution.  I asked her if she has ever found that.  Her response was, yes, with my ex-husband. 

    How do you argue against that logic?

    But like I said, I count my blessings that she isn’t a user, because I would gladly have given and given and given.  Stupid sap that I can be.

    Oh and it wasn’t about lack of arousal.  We had no difficulties there.

    Precision | 2/13/2008 02:32 PM CDT | #112994
  59. The Little Coach said:

    The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    I have to agree.  I got married at 37 to a 25 y.o. bride (I met her in Mexico, long story for a different time).  After having been married for a year or so, I understood how lucky I was to have been single (while still appreciating the company and the regular nookie that I wouldn’t have gotten without being married).  Don’t get me wrong, I loved (and still love) my wife.  When she’s acting normally, when she doesn’t complain endlessly about shit that is in the past (and which, by definition, I can’t do ONE FUCKING THING ABOUT), when she’s not there scheduling all of my off time to her liking...I love her dearly.  She’s gotten better over time - maybe it is maturity, maybe it is that she knows me better, maybe I’ve mellowed a bit - but there are still THOSE times when I honestly wonder what demon possessed me to ask for her hand.  Oh well, I imagine that she probably wonders what demon made her say “yes” - because, honestly, I’m pretty far from perfect.  Now I have the wisdom to understand my then future FIL’s question/warning when his daughter told him we were getting married:  “Are you drunk?” Ooh, boy, there are times when I think that I should have listened. 

    But those kids...damn, I wouldn’t trade them and their happiness for the world, let alone the peace to be able to rule my spare time as I see fit 100% of the time.  I’ve got a 6 y.o. daughter (who has a lot of the personality traits of her mother - I already pity my future SIL, as well as being jealous of the bastard for stealing my little girl) and a 3 y.o. minime who are truly the joy of my life.  When they smile, there are no problems (no, not even the prospect of a Hillary-Obama team in the WH can touch that, not for those first few minutes after they get up or I get home).  As bad as things can sometimes get, not seeing them grow up, not being able to be with them, not being able to help mold them, etc. is just not acceptable - not for any reason.

    I, like every other married person, like to bitch about my spouse.  Sometimes the bitching is justified and accurate, sometimes it is just blowing off steam.  Overall, I’m pretty happy - but without the kids I might have split some time ago.  Father’s duty - you bring ‘em into this world, you’ve got to take care of them, even if it hurts, even if you’re not the happiest person in the world.  Oh, and BTW, it is absolutely the truth that the little ones CAUSE a lot of marital stress - so some of the shit that men have to deal with ISN’T the wife’s fault.  Heck, fairness and reality dictate that many times they shield us from a lot of the stress and take it upon themselves - for which we should be thankful.  Like everything else in life, there’s very little black and white - most of it is some shade of gray.

    In conclusion, if something happens to my wife - whom I love despite our problems - I won’t be getting remarried...at least not until I find someone who is a bit of a tomboy (that seems to be the right formula for understanding and treating a man right).  My problem is that there are precious few Jewish tomboys out there, and probably even fewer who I wouldn’t have to get completely drunk to sleep with.

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    Nothing like an easy, unambitious question.  :>) Kim, you certainly can’t say that the “<acronym title="My wife, partner, and technical support, Connie du Toit, as described by a feminist reader.">Imaginary Wife</acronym>” doesn’t give you a lot of “imaginary” challenges.  At least you guys see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues, and your love, respect and admiration for each other let you overcome those times when Kim is so obviously wrong.  :>)

    If I knew the answer and could implement it, I’d be wealthy beyond even Bill Gates’ imagination, and I’d deserve it.  I don’t, but I’ll accept the challenge and take a stab at it.

    First, society has to recognize that there IS a problem.  So long as the idiot media and press (/oxymoron) keep telling us that more of the same shit that put us in this predicament is not only OK, but is necessary, we’ll have no chance at even considering a solution as a society.  Maybe we’ll need a good whack over the head to figure out that there’s a problem that needs solving - like too many immigrants changing the nature of our society and draining our resources, a federal welfare system that is so expensive that the shortage of workers puts us on the road to bankruptcy, etc.  Uh, ummm, oh - nevermind.  Maybe we won’t wake up until half of the presstitutes get beheaded by the oh-so-kind-and-openminded members of the ROP.

    Anyhow, once we recognize a problem, the next step is understanding the cause(s).  If you ask me, the decline of morality - caused and aided largely by the missing influence of religion - is a major reason.  Out of this also comes extreme liberalism - which, in my book, stems more from a lack of understanding of the concept of responsibility than anything else.  No religion for MOST people means having no higher morality authority, which seems to be a signal to do whatever strikes your mind as the most pleasurable at that moment.  Having kids, except for the first few minutes of the process, usually ain’t fun, and it is certainly a very expensive proposition (which doesn’t appeal to lots of people).  Having kids also entails responsbility, LOTS of it - and the lack of kids only reinforces the general attitude of “fun is good, responsibility is a drag that I can and will do everything possible to avoid.” The ACLU bears a lot of the responsibility for this, IMHO.  So does organized religion, which hasn’t adequately advocated for itself, and which also hasn’t (in many cases) adequately governed its very human leaders to be sure that their natural human weaknesses (lust, corruption, love of power, etc.) don’t tarnish the image of religion in general, and their religion in particular.

    I also blame our secular leaders.  What the Hell ever happened to make loving your country and its symbols a “bad thing?” Why can a dunce like Obama not put his hand over his heart and say the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem, and yet be very close to being nominated by one of the 2 major political parties for President?  What’s happened to educating our youth about the good things that our society offers, and giving students enough information to say, “damn, but I’m glad not to live in a
    shithole 3rd World country-so glad that I’ll serve in the Army and defend this country against all comers?” Where do you hear that nowadays?

    Moving away from a self-hating Socialist system (yeah, I know:  /oxymoron), one that would enable the large-scale return of the single-earner household, would do wonders for our nation.  Telling the Socialist SOBs in Congress and our state legislatures “Fuck you, go home and earn an honest living instead of taking our money and telling us how to live our lives” would do the trick after a decade or 2.  We can start by showing up at the polls and voting to stop the Socialist SOBs - all of them, starting from the top (and YES that means voting for McStain, no matter how much it hurts.  As Kim says, “I love my country more than I hate McCain").

    Sam Adams | 2/13/2008 02:41 PM CDT | #112997
  60. Tech, you and I have gone round on the population thing before- I think the basic problem is that the type of people who formed our country are not reproducing- I.e. those believe in a western republic. On the other hand, those who do not, seem to be replicating themselves worldwide with quite some vigor.  But my viewpoint is biased being a country boy at heart, I miss the open lands, (and not just the ones that are too barren to support life, but the woodlands and farms).

    Raven | 2/13/2008 03:08 PM CDT | #113004
  61. I am on my second marriage. My first was a disaster, my second is sort of OK. If any man was thinking of getting married, I would refer him to two websites: nomarriage.com and americanwomensuck.com. I rather agree that the modern western women in general has attitudes that make marriage very difficult, and divorce a horrendous and odds-on reality. Modern laws give men a terrible deal when marriages do break up. As someone has said, why not save yourself a lot of trouble - just find someone you don’t like and give them your house ...

    I am convinced for a number of reasons that many marriages are either totally or virtually without sexual relations after a few years. A lot of men have the downside of marriage without any of the benefits, and it is only the fear of the inequity and cruelty of the divorce process and the ever present threat of losing access to their children that keep them locked in, until she decides otherwise.

    My wife, thankfully, is not a feminist, and is a good cook. She refused to have children (much to my sadness), so I have no idea what that is like, but I have known more than a few men who are suffering from horrible kids or nice kids they are not allowed to see.

    My advice to any man is to stay single, and, if I had my time again, that is absolutely what I would do.

    Fergus | 2/13/2008 03:17 PM CDT | #113006
  62. That’s so sad.  Kim is my WHOLE LIFE.  Yes, the kids are in there, too, but I don’t want to live a minute longer than he does.  In fact, I’d prefer to die the second he does so neither of us has a moment of misery without the other.

    That is so wonderful to have.  He is my best friend, my lover, my husband, my partner.  He’s my better side, my conscience, my protector, and my sounding board.  WE are the example to our children of what a good marriage can and should be.

    I didn’t think it was possible.  I thought that what I wanted in a partner was a fantasy (and my ex kept reminding me of that fact while we were in a miserable marriage).

    But it IS possible.  I see other couples just as engaged and involved with their partners (those who make up our circle of friends).  But I also know couples who seem to hate each other and are mean to each other (in public!).

    I don’t know why that is.  I don’t know why they remain together or haven’t found a way to find peace and settle those disagreements.  Why live that way if you can avoid it?  Life is SHORT!

    But not take the risk and have not found the happiness in marriage that I found with Kim??? I’d be crazy not to have risked it.

    Every single day of my life is joy and bliss with this man.  I get to sleep next to this man EVERY night and I resent a few days of business travel that takes me away from that.

    Connie du Toit | 2/13/2008 03:33 PM CDT | #113008
  63. Kim is the most blessed man on earth.

    The Little Coach | 2/13/2008 03:49 PM CDT | #113009
  64. No, I’m the lucky one, Coach.  I do NOT know why he puts up with me, but whatever magic spell he’s been under that keeps him thinking he should keep me around, I hope never wears off!

    Connie du Toit | 2/13/2008 03:56 PM CDT | #113011
  65. The whole damn thing is sad. I would LOVE to be married happily. Not sure it can happen now. Women have unrealistic expctations of marriage and what it is all about. I KNOW I cannot/will not/ don’t want to be all those things that are now “required” in a marriage. The last gf I had wanted a HUGE house in the ‘burbs (that alone sinks it for me) - the house I live in wasn’t good enough; wanted to take expensive trips; stay at home; large suv; a maid AND a nanny and wanted quit working so she could hang out with her friends...I am not exaggerating one bit. This was her stated “conditions” for marriage. Now she didn’t just list these “requirements” at one time, but rather gradually they came out in normal talk. When asked what HER responsiblities would be, she said, none…

    The crowning benediction was when she told me that making $100k wasn’t enough for her husband - and further, that he had to always be making more money to “make her happy.” At that point I recalled her dad died in his 40s - because he had been worked to death by her mom. I just kinda laughed and ended the evening early...and the “relationship” for good.

    The sad thing is that I have met several girls after her and one of the first things they wanted to know was, “what do you do for a living.” Now I make VERY good money, have a couple of cars, access to a camp on a river, to boats and to some of the finer things in life. But once a woman asks that question on a first date, for me it’s over. One even proceeded to tell me about how her she “really took her ex to the cleaners when he got a new job,” for additional child support. Boy that sure made me more attracted to her. Funny thing is, she, along with a couple of others, misrepresented herself as being “average” but when they actually showed up, the were fat pigs...which is no problem, but don’t LIE about it...and use faked/old photos to attract men…

    Where did it all go wrong?

    Achilles | 2/13/2008 04:04 PM CDT | #113012
  66. Something you failed to touch upon:

    Women (the majority) CHANGE—and not for the better—after marriage.

    My first was HORRENDOUS.  Daughter born 10months and 2days from the night we met, so I “did the right thing” by a VERY messed-up woman.

    Eventually getting out with my life (and eventually my kids) became the new “right thing.”

    I SWORE I’d NEVER EVER get married again.

    Along came THE PERFECT woman.  I haven’t changed, but ...  I hardly recognize her any more.  Bitter, cranky… “Conversation” consists of an unending litany of all the ways in which everything in her life—particularly me—aren’t meeting her expectations.

    Thing is, everything was GREAT for YEARS up until the wedding—~7 years into the relationship, you’d think you know all there is to know about someone, but… It’s like a bad body-snatcher movie.  What the hell happened?

    Thing is, I am NOT alone.  Every (ok, everyone but Kim) I know or read about has the same story, to the point that “wedding cake” is known to be the one food that can turn Ms. Jekyll into Mrs. Hyde.

    Why?

    Best of all, when I finally pull the plug, I’ll be denounced by all and sundry as a “pig” or worse, who “abandoned” her.

    WTF??

    DD

    Dedicated_Dad | 2/13/2008 04:04 PM CDT | #113013
  67. heh.

    That’s WHY Kim and I didn’t get married for five years, DD.  We were worried we turn into married people and start hating each other.  Why risk a perfect relationship? (we thought).

    Boy, were WE wrong.  It got a million times BETTER.

    Connie du Toit | 2/13/2008 04:08 PM CDT | #113015
  68. In most states, a good pre-nup can at least greatly reduce the financial risk of a man about to embark on a marriage. It won’t take care of all the issues Kim points out, but it will make it a lot cheaper to pull the ripcord and bail if you find out you’ve married a harpy two years in.

    The money you spend on a pre-nup (and it may be several thousand, or more, if you have lots of assets) will be some of the best money you’ve ever spent.

    Sertorius | 2/13/2008 04:09 PM CDT | #113017
  69. Imaginary Wife/Tech Support:

    As a retired lieutenant colonel I am not a guy to choke up, mostly, but your tribute to your relationship with Kim kind of caused my eyes to sweat.  Kim and I may be two of the luckiest men in America, having two bright, loving, understanding women to share the rest of our lives with.  Bless you and my wife Cindy both for being there for us, and for understanding that men and women are wonderfully different, and that that is not a bad thing.

    Happy Valentine’s Day

    Mustang | 2/13/2008 04:20 PM CDT | #113019
  70. How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    It’s not just men who are not getting married and having children. Have you looked at the comments on this post over at Rachel Lucas’s? Rachel and scads of others there are talking about how they have no regrets over not having had children and/or gotten married.

    WayneB | 2/13/2008 04:26 PM CDT | #113020
  71. I think a lot of it has to do with our culture’s definition of love as something you “get.” It’s a commodity--or maybe even an entitlement. That’s why there’s so much shrieking about not having expectations met. Where was all that love I was promised?  When, in fact, love is something you do. And because of that, it does require--definitionally--some amount of sacrifice--because it’s what you do (day to day, forever) for someone else, for the sake of something larger than you (that does include you). It’s an action. It’s a verb. That is the love upon which marriages is built--not the feeling. Feelings are transitory and arbitrary. Nice to have but not need to have. Our ancestors weren’t “in love” with each other all the time. But their dedication of their lives to each other, to build families (and farms, towns, states, countries...) was an act of love.

    NOTHING in our culture speaks of love this way. So why should any of our young people grow up prepared to offer love, when all they’ve been taught is that it’s their god-given right to receive it like a birthday present?

    aordover | 2/13/2008 05:00 PM CDT | #113023
  72. How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers? 
    ...
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/13/2008 12:34 PM CST | #112964

    This is a HUGE part of the problem, but NOT LIKE YOU THINK.

    PLEASE check out “Divorced Dads:  Shattering The Myths” by Dr. Sanford Braver.

    MOST men—MOST—want nothing more than to be allowed to be “attentive fathers”.

    Malicious Mothers (with all the power of the State at her behest) abuse the system for financial gain and revenge (not necessarily in that order).

    Women initiate ~75% of divorces, and most often list “we just grew apart” as the reason.

    Whoever gets the kids, gets the cash, and our system almost always ensures that is HER.  Add in the “Restraining order” guarantee, and reward it with de-facto custody which will soon be rubber-stamped in “family court.” Relegate the poor, broke guy to every-oth