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Wednesday, April 11, 2007


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Not That Way

April 11, 2007
6:00 AM CST

I’ve been mulling over Superfluous for the past day or two, and something occurred to me.

In the list of (starter) books for young people, The Mrs. did not mention a single work of science fiction. And I think I know why.

I’ve never been a fan of science fiction, and whenever I’m asked why, I generally use a throwaway remark like ”I have enough problems in dealing with reality, without adding unreality to the mix.

Now before I’m buried under an avalanche of angry comments from my legions of Readers Who Are Also Sci-Fi Fans, let me explain a little.

The great Bill Whittle once explained to me that he was having enormous problems writing a sci-fi short story. When I asked why (Bill does not suffer writer’s block), he said this: “The problem is that with science fiction, the unspoken rule is that you get to suspend one, and only one law of physics. I can’t do that. I have to write something believable, without that suspension of disbelief, and which obeys all the laws of physics.”

And that, in a nutshell, is my fundamental problem with science fiction: you start with an unreal premise, and go on from there.

The more I think about it, the more I’m beginning to feel that this is the basis for all wrong-headed thinking in the world. To quote Monty Python: ”Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is not a basis for a system of government.” We all had a good giggle at that; and yet, ”From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” is no less ridiculous as a basis for a system of government, because it starts off with an unreal premise: that Man is a selfless human being, will continue to suppress his innate selfishness for the sake of the greater good, and will not take advantage of the hard work of others to make his own life easier.

One more: ”God will provide”, or, in the vernacular, ”Insh’Allah.” That’s right: there’s no need to worry, because my imaginary friend will always help me out.

Here’s another one, just as ridiculous: ”As long as we all act rationally and respect the rights of others, we don’t need any kind of government.” That philosophy asks that we expect that Man will never give in to his baser impulses of mendacity, cupidity and irrationality.

Frankly, as a foundation principle of government, I prefer the Ten Commandments, which basically forbids all those human foibles which cause society’s fabric to tear and fall to pieces—even though the final punishment for transgression will be administered by yet another imaginary friend.

So I don’t think that kids should be exposed to science fiction, at least, not as a first exposure to literature. I know, sci-fi helps expand the imagination, but only through the premise that an unreal situation is the sine qua non. The unfortunate consequence of that premise is that it leads to two-dimensional thinking—and what any society needs to succeed is three-dimensional thinking.

One of the great works of fantasy is Douglas Adams’s Hitchhiker’s Guide, which takes the unreal solution to its ultimate conclusion by making all conflict resolution the result of outrageous odds coming in. Great premise for escapist reading; not a great philosophy by which to run one’s life or a society.

Compare that premise to Robert Louis Stevenson’s Kidnapped, which involves a young boy trying to claim his inheritance, but blocked at every turn by greedy and evil men. Young David Balfour goes through an unimaginable series of hardships and frights: he is betrayed, and lied to, and threatened with death. He is never plucked from a situation of peril by a spaceship piloted by aliens, à la Brian of Nazareth. His only means of escape are his own pluck and tenacity, the occasional kindness of others, and ordinary luck. And at the end, he gets his inheritance not through a fairy godmother’s wand, but through his own actions.

At the end of it all, of course, lies this hard, uncomfortable and yet inescapable fact: we become what we are through our own actions, not by relying on unreal premises or solutions.

We know this, of course—at least, the more intelligent of us do—by saying things like ”Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he’ll eat all his life.

We all understand the wisdom of this statement. Yet we fritter away money and resources on stopgap measures like food drops, instead of providing electricity and potable water systems, because we are focused on stopping that one child from dying, rather than providing for the survival of countless future generations.

And we insist on trying to find solutions to intractable problems only after binding ourselves with ridiculous constraints like onerous taxation or inappropriate religious restrictions, both of which are examples of two-dimensional thinking.

It’s no good. We can’t bend the realities of life, or ignore them. We have to work within those confines to find our solutions to life’s problems.

Because, in the end, it’s only those solutions which last. All others fail.




Comments

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  1. I wish my sons third grade teacher would believe as you. He is in trouble reading because he reads too many non-fiction books. The teacher would like a two or three to one mix, fiction vs non-fiction. This is in third grade with a kid who already has an over active imagination. Of course I am working against that figuring that there will be enough time later on to read fiction, then the teachers will be working on reading non-fiction when the kids want to read fiction.

    By the way first post here, love the site and the shooting/gun pictures.

    MPW

    Author ID: 9823 | 4/11/2007 07:21 AM CST | #86479
  2. Kim,

    Just a couple of Sci-fi/Fantasy that you might like (and that don’t mess with the physics per se).  The Second Sons trilogy by Fallon is future based (post Terra-diaspora) but follows some interesting social and scientific themes, along with religion and fanaticism.  There is a five book series by Drake and Stirling that does tactics and social conflict in a good manner; I don’t have the books with me right now to recall the exact names.  Add in The Once and Future King for fun and a twist on Arthurian Legend and Starship Troopers for morals and ethics. 

    I agree that most of the sci-fi is pretty awful in terms of science.  I enjoy character driven stories and can tell you that C.S. Friedman does a wonderful job in the genre without stretching too far.  I still re-read In Conquest Born and The Madness Season; both play with the rules and are very adult in terms of theme and appeal. 

    Sorry about the semi-rant; this old Army sergeant has loved books for the ability to transport him from garrison and combat zones on four continents to a better spot.  For non-fiction I’m re-reading The Other Side of the Mountain by Grau and Jalil.  Les is just down the hall and getting him to talk about his books is a great distraction. 

    Have a good one!
    SGT Dave

    Author ID: 9913 | 4/11/2007 07:27 AM CST | #86481
  3. Bad or mediocre sci-fi will use the science fiction as a deus ex machina.  Good sci-fi won’t do that; inclusion of aliens and strange planets will be used to tell a story that could work just as well in a regular fiction enviroment.  The themes of many Heinlen books could be adapted to regular fiction stories and be just as good.

    Author ID: 1257 | 4/11/2007 07:34 AM CST | #86483
  4. Where do the great myths, both ancient (The Odyssey, Beowulf) and modern (Tolkien) fit in - if at all?  (Right out, I’m guessing.)

    What about counterfactuals/alternate history?  Though exercises in “what if”, most (especially the scholarly ones) maintain at least a pretense of abiding by the laws of physics and human nature.

    Finally, I don’t think it’s too fine a point to make a distinction between space opera (which differs only from fantasy in the “flavor” of settings, costumes and props) and “hard” SF (Haldeman, some Heinlein, Niven, Niven/Pournelle) which postulates a yet-undiscovered law of physics/technological innovation/event/race and tries to integrate it with what is already known.

    Author ID: 618 | 4/11/2007 07:37 AM CST | #86484
  5. We’re talking about two discrete subjects, Sgt Dave, which is why brining up the subject gets Kim and I in a bit of hot water with the sci fi fans.

    Sure, read sci fi for escapism and entertainment IF THAT FLOATS YOUR BOAT.

    We had to go through SOME sci fi with one of our boys to get him over the reading hump, but that was because he had to be reschooled (from years of private education).  He hadn’t developed a love of reading and he was an older teenager.  Sci Fi, and racing through a few of the good series got his reading level up.

    But then it was time for the classics, chosen especially for his tastes.  Now given a choice between two dimensional sci fi or Daphne du Maurier, he chooses the latter.

    It’s about character AND imagination building.  It’s also about realistic adventures in a real world--with real world problems and real world characters.

    As Kim says, it does not help a child to have some unrealistic male equivalent of a Knight in Shining Space Vehicle come to the rescue.  We have to solve our problems and overcome our problems with what we have now.

    Fantasy also serves a purpose.  Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan are fantasy, but they have the foundation of character building.  They aren’t just entertainment and escapism.  They deal with very important concepts in a fantasy setting.  They are parables more than fantasy.  Pure fantasy, escapism, isn’t good all the time.  It needs to be balanced with substance, just like junk food.

    The real message is that is isn’t enough just to read.  It matters what you read and how you focus and train a child’s mind.  Reading should focus the mind AND expand the mind, as well as shape and develop a moral sense.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 4/11/2007 07:40 AM CST | #86485
  6. The best of science fiction, for me, suspends no laws. It deals with everything within known science, and extrapolates a future situation in which to tell a tale. No reason you should like it or care to read it, just my observation. I mostly read history and biography, but good science fiction can capture my imagination and take me vicariously into many a fine story.

    Author ID: 1632 | 4/11/2007 07:43 AM CST | #86486
  7. Kim, I have to take issue with your coupling of Marxism and the “imaginary friend” line. Quite apart from the atheistic fallacy (absence of evidence is evidence of absence), Marx himself was the one who declared religion to be the opiate of the masses, and of course the first order of business for most communist government is to ban all worship.

    If anything, Marxism proceeds not from the premise that “God will provide,” but that “the State will provide,” and even more to the point, “The individual is incapable of providing.”

    Author ID: 2714 | 4/11/2007 07:56 AM CST | #86488
  8. Kim, I’m afraid that I have to disagree with you and Madame TS on this one.

    GOOD science-fiction is precisely the sort of material needed to inspire GREAT engineering.

    Truly brilliant engineers - and I’ve had the privilege of working with a few - operate at the junction of inspiration and perspiration.  Yes, the spark of true genius is essential....but so is the drive needed to see things to completion.

    And most of the great engineers get a fair amount of motivation from science fiction.

    Let’s take a concrete example.  The men who started research into rocketry - the men who would put a man on the moon - ALL cited Jules Verne’s “From the Earth to the Moon” as a primary inspiration for their work.  The source of a dream that would see a generation of engineers through decades of patient, painstaking study and labor....working toward an end that many of those engineers knew they would not live to see.

    But that is the role that science-fiction plays....to tell us that the impossible IS possible.  Hard, yes.  Demanding of sacrifice, too.

    But that which comes without cost is without value.

    Author ID: 200 | 4/11/2007 08:05 AM CST | #86492
  9. This is perhaps the same reason I do not enjoy Science Fiction (well, I’ll make an exception for Firefly/Serenity).

    However, regarding the phrase “God will provide”, I have a different take.  Anyone who would use that as an excuse for not being self-sufficient abuses the .  But if a person believes that a choice to follow a certain avenue in life that is God-directed and will almost certainly bring hardship with it—then I think it can be appropriate.  God’s provision brings with it an accountability that is sometimes left out of the equation.  All I know is that I’ve heard the “God will provide” mantra spouted by people who were just using it as an excuse to be irresponsible and lazy, and then I’ve also seen/heard it used by people were making a choice to go down a difficult road and firmly believed God would in fact provide what they needed.  Two different things entirely.

    Hell, I believe there have been times when God provided for my family—but I never stopped doing whatever needed to be done on my end to be a provider.  I’ve always taken that responsibility on my own shoulders—being self-sufficient and able to cope with the hardships that come with life is the American way.  Sort of like taking responsibility for your own self defense and protection of your loved ones.

    By labeling God as an “imaginary friend”, have you not relegated your readers who are believers to a status of ignorant/superstitious/dope smoking morons?  I’m not big on organized religion and I call bullshit on a lot of modern religious doctrine/dogma, but I have a strong belief in God and have had experiences that I truly believe were spiritual.  Faith is not the same as using your imagination to make the world better than it is.

    Author ID: 803 | 4/11/2007 08:15 AM CST | #86493
  10. What about books like Animal Farm, Brave New World, 1984, 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea,Moby Dick or The Odyssey? All of these are semi Sci-Fi and classics of literature. They contain fantastical creatures, people, and plots that don’t occur in real life...Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. Sometimes the line between fiction and Science-fiction is very thin.

    Author ID: 9703 | 4/11/2007 08:18 AM CST | #86494
  11. Regarding “Insh’allah”, the Sufis have a saying: “Trust in God, but don’t forget to tether your camel.”

    Of course, the Sufis are the red-headed step-child of the Islamic religion, so no one cares what they say.

    Author ID: 1257 | 4/11/2007 08:19 AM CST | #86495
  12. Kim, Connie:

    At the risk of p!$$!ng BOTH of you off (a risk I regularly run, it seems) I would like to offer an alternative view of SF that, I think, makes sense.

    NEVER, EVER try to use Sci-fi as a basis for education at ANY level; I didn’t find out about RAH until I was in 4th grade, when I found my first science-fiction novel; it was either Rocket Ship Galileo or Have Space Suit, Will Travel - BOTH of which teach responsibility, adult courage, and self-reliance, in a milieu that allows Heinlein to venture into morality without ONCE making a ten-year-old boy think he is being preached to - or AT, which is anathema to a boy that age!
    By that time, I had devoured sixth-grade readers, elementary-school science books (I knew how an airplane flies while some kids were looking up and saying “Ooh, shiny! Pretty!"), and an occasional poetry tome. it didn’t help me all that much on the poetry part (not exciting enough!), but the rest is, as they say, history - which is ANOTHER subject I was pretty familiar with, beyond my years.

    The point is that, with PROPER grounding and the RIGHT KIND of SF, you can get a kid to explore past, present, AND future, along with his own sense of morality and yours, much easier than most any other method. Face the facts; until and unless the ultra-right-wing-conservative-religious-fundamentalist-Jesus-freak Christians get their way and we all go back to 1835 technology and society, Science Fiction is here to STAY. Because unless the aforementioned IDIOTS get the power, High-Tech is here to stay. And unless we all want to starve in the dark and cold, we’d better fight to make SURE high-tech stays.

    Look at Star Trek; seriously, not as a sci-fi show, but as a philosophy and morality teacher. Delete the Warp Drive and the Transporter and the Vulcans and Klingons and Gorn (oh, my!). What is left?
    Believe it or not, what Gene Roddenberry proposed to NBC, and used to sneak his own philosophy in under their stupide noses, was ‘Wagon Train To The Stars.’ Seriously, THAT was his pitch. Each week, the ensemble cast of Kirk/Spock/McCoy/Scotty/Uhura/Sulu/Chekov would host a different guest star, providing a familiar ‘neighborhood’ for the viewers, and using the dramatic vehicle of that guest star’s crisis, dilemna, or just plain problem to teach a particular moral issue. Under the guise of “it’s only science fiction, after all,” Roddenberry and the other writers taught about Religion, Race, Nuclear Disarmament, Sex, Education, Child care, and just about EVERY OTHER moral issue of the Sixties - and did it, as I said, RIGHT UNDER THE NBC Network Censors’ noses.

    Properly used, Science Fiction can be a GREAT teacher; you just gotta speak in parables. Which, if I recall correctly, another GREAT Teacher used quite successfully.

    IMPROPERLY used, you can rot a brain out in less than thirty seconds - just look at some of the sci-fi horror stuff floating around the theaters and TV channels!

    GACK!!

    See ya,

    Jim

    Author ID: 8889 | 4/11/2007 08:21 AM CST | #86496
  13. If anything, Marxism proceeds not from the premise that “God will provide,” but that “the State will provide,” and even more to the point, “The individual is incapable of providing.”

    “God will provide” and “The State will provide” are both a matter of faith rather than evidence.  Both are species of mysticism (it is supposed to happen “somehow"), and both are used to excuse inaction.

    You also seem to confuse atheism with Atheism.  To me (and, I assume, to Kim), the lack of evidence is the lack of any reason to believe, and doubly so when the notion requires belief contrary to experience (e.g., socialism by the mid-20th century) or belief in an unobservable parallel reality (i.e., the supernatural).

    Not that I’ve got a problem with (good) science fiction, by which I mean sci-fi that doesn’t stray to far from the plausible.  But when it strays too far, or begins to blend with fantasy, I’m out.

    Author ID: 9014 | 4/11/2007 08:24 AM CST | #86497
  14. But the world isn’t made up of engineers, Mike.  Only a small fraction of the population has both the interest and the aptitude.

    And if those engineers decided to put money interests first, such as running off to Iran to help them with their nuclear desires, what good would that do us?

    There HAS to be a balance of character building/morals education with technical knowledge.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 4/11/2007 08:34 AM CST | #86501
  15. Like most all writing, sci fi can be bad, mediocre or great.  Myth and imagination has always been an important part of being human, I have far more worries about a legion of kids growing up with no more imagination left at all, being fed a relentless diet of prosaic ,dull ,PC texts, watching dumb ,predictable TV and never wondering about a damn thing.

    Author ID: 8821 | 4/11/2007 08:41 AM CST | #86506
  16. There HAS to be a balance of character building/morals education with technical knowledge.

    You can get that from most any work of fiction, science based or not. Like Jim said, its all a matter of applying the situations and topics adderssed to ‘real life’.

    Author ID: 9703 | 4/11/2007 08:46 AM CST | #86509
  17. Linked and posted http://warthogswrants.blogspot.com/2007/04/dead-on.html

    For a different reason.  I love sci fi, but there’s a social statement made in Kim’s post that really struck home.

    Author ID: 9834 | 4/11/2007 08:47 AM CST | #86510
  18. A Mote in God’s Eye… Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

    Childhood’s End - the book 2001: A Space Odessy - Rendezvous with Rama… - Arthur C. Clarke

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Philip K. Dick

    Giant’s Series… Journey from Yesteryear, Code of the Lifemaker - James P. Hogan

    Millennium and many others by Ben Bova

    Friday, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Time Enough for Love - Robert A. Heinlein…

    I find science fiction tons more satisfying than the “Classics”, maybe its the History person in me.  I have no interest in navel gazing at the present, or groaning through some ponderous tome exploring the feelings of 19th century man… (I do that as a matter of constextual discipline within the study of history.... that is enjoyable to me… Victor Hugo is pendulous…

    Though I can still read everything that Samuel Langhorne Clemens ever wrote and still read it again… Always re-read “Fenimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses” before evaluating any work of Classic fiction.

    I think it comes from a quirk in personality.  I am just not fond of fiction that mirrors real life.  I would rather the universe be laid out in front of me to tinker with.

    I have read every Dirk Pitt Novel, and have enjoyed most of Tom Clancey’s work… but somehow I really don’t think Dirk’s last chase scene while driving an expensive antique automobile… counts as classic fiction… wink

    r/TMF

    Author ID: 8618 | 4/11/2007 08:50 AM CST | #86511
  19. There is crap science fiction, and there is good science fiction.

    In the former category is most of it.

    In the (vastly smaller) latter category are Heinlein, Asimov, Pohl, C.S. Lewis, and a precious handful of a few others.

    Age-appropriateness is another issue. Most children, boys especially, literally haven’t developed the higher reasoning facilities to absorb most good science fiction until 7th grade/adolescence, at the earliest, and I’m speaking from a medical/physiological point of view.

    For that matter, they haven’t the sense for most deeper morality teaching (beyond strict good and bad) either before that age, so most fiction in general would be lost on them too.

    The formative years should be spent teaching the skill of reading, and saving the serious substance for when (literally) they’ve developed the wit to appreciate and absorb it.

    Author ID: 9097 | 4/11/2007 08:51 AM CST | #86512
  20. Regarding “Insh’allah”, the Sufis have a saying: “Trust in God, but don’t forget to tether your camel.”

    The Russians are said to put it, “Pray to God, but row for shore.”

    I’ve found some of the finest moral teaching of my life in Lord of the Rings, but as a Catholic, I would say that, wouldn’t I?  tongue wink

    Mike_MN is apparently versed in the philosophy of science. I wish I had time to dive in, but will have to settle for hoping to have a beer sometime.  LOL

    Author ID: 1448 | 4/11/2007 08:51 AM CST | #86513
  21. That’s a key point, Raven.  The writing needs to be good.  Good parents wouldn’t feed their kids a solid diet of junk food, so why the solid diet of pulp fiction?

    So little Sci Fi (at least most of the more recent or popular stuff) has such poor writing.  It’s one step above “See Jane run.” So much of it is simplistic and two dimensional.  There are good people or bad people (or creatures) with none of the subtleties of real life… “bad” people are not 100% bad.  There are so many two dimensional heroes.  So much of it is the evil warlord/tyranny imposing itself on the desperate but noble.  That’s such a crock.

    The reading levels (or the comprehension levels) of readers used to be a lot higher.  We sacrificed reading levels for having more readers, in the choices we give children.  I’d happily give up 50% of mediocre readers for 5% of the population appreciating good literature.

    1 in 8 Americans can’t read at all.  1 in 7 is barely literate (but hold high school diplomas).

    Can’t we have 1 in 8 who appreciate and can comprehend GOOD writing?

    The goal is to develop their ability to appreciate good writing as much as it is about the side benefits of the literature.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 4/11/2007 08:53 AM CST | #86514
  22. There is “science-fiction” and there is CLASSIC “science-fiction”. To totally eschew works like “1984” and “Brave New World” would be to miss some great perspectives on dysutopias.

    What of H.G. Wells classics? Certainly sci-fi and yet so inextricably entwined in our culture as to make them mandatory.

    Then a life without the insight of the prolific Isaac Azimov or the mindful constructions of Robert Heinlein would be similarly benighted.

    No, I think that eliminations of significant genre from an education is offering an overlay of the pedants own limited exposure.

    Now, that being said, I would say that bodice ripper gothic romances might be safely omitted.

    Excuse me, for a moment while I return to Stephen King and once again am amazed at the construction of “The Stand” and how he manages to make me suspend my disbelief in vampires with “‘Salem’s Lot”.

    It’s sci-fi, you know. Mustn’t have such trash in our house....

    Author ID: 7830 | 4/11/2007 08:55 AM CST | #86515
  23. “And that, in a nutshell, is my fundamental problem with science fiction: you start with an unreal premise, and go on from there… So I don’t think kids should be exposed to science fiction”
    I think you are overanalyzing. Unreal premises are part and parcel of children’s fiction. Talking animals, flying reindeer, “Open sesame” causing a stone to move… As long as the right moral lessons are being taught, why nit-pick the literary genre?

    Author ID: 2489 | 4/11/2007 09:01 AM CST | #86518
  24. Somewhat off-topic, but in the post:

    Yet we fritter away money and resources on stopgap measures like food drops, instead of providing electricity and potable water systems, because we are focused on stopping that one child from dying, rather than providing for the survival of countless future generations.

    I think this is worthy of treatment in a full post in itself. The reasoning behind the canard that conservatives are mean and heartless is that conservatives tend to care about the best for society as a whole. The left will always hold up ‘Timmy’ claiming that the big mean conservatives have caused him a particular hardship, and that more money and socalism are needed. Nevermind that the best tradeoff for the whole of free society will sometimes be hard on a few, but produce the best overall results. Hardship forced on thousands (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/single/10472/) is overlooked so long as the poster-children are taken care-of. Since there will always be plenty of outliers to be used as poster-children, there will always be leftist heart-string arguments to take our money and freedoms.

    Do it for Timmy.

    Author ID: 7718 | 4/11/2007 09:01 AM CST | #86519
  25. As someone mentioned, “Hard” Sci-Fi usually beaks no laws, just extrapolates the application of current technology.  When Larry Niven sends people off with a solar sail or an “Orion,” he is using devices designed decades ago. 

    David Drake, whose books I have enjoyed immensely, is a Vietnam Vet.  When he got home he had many stories to tell but nobody wanted to hear about the war back then.  So, he just replaced the technology and settings and told his experiences.  Great stuff. 

    My political views have been altered by authors like Heinlein, Pournelle, and more recently Michael Z. Williamson.  They gave me insights into the meaning of “freedom” I would not otherwise have.

    Author ID: 8662 | 4/11/2007 09:03 AM CST | #86523
  26. Good sci-fi is a vehicle for storytelling. Gene Roddenberry sold the original Star Trek idea to NBC by calling it a “wagon train to the stars.” While undiscovered technology and “new laws of physics” were a part of the yarn, the STORY was always the focus. As stated above, most of these stories could be told in a traditional Earth-bound setting. At the same time, one hundred years ago we had nowhere near the scientific knowledge we did today. We have made what can only be described as an enourmous leap in a short period of human history. But yet, we are also realizing how much we don’t know, as things like Einstein’s general relativity are being challenged. So I think that dismissing science fiction simply because it violates the currently understood “laws” of physics doesn’t make sense.

    One of the cornerstones of science fiction is that it shows us how humans might deal with existing problems (including quite a few new ones) when our playground is vastly expanded. How would we deal with mining rights? Government over such vast distances? Contact with a completely different race? While not the best show, the recent Star Trek: Enterprise addressed some of the issues and misunderstandings that humans might have when venturing out from Earth. Don’t these questions give us some insight on the human condition as a whole? Isn’t that what good storytelling and literature is supposed to do?

    Kim’s quote “ ...we become what we are through our own actions, not by relying on unreal premises or solutions.” is very true. However, good science fiction like Firefly neither uses the premise as an excuse for a real story, nor relies on the technology to solve the human problem in the story. There IS science fiction like this, just like there is bad literature in all genres, and I avoid it like the plague. On the other hand, there are some markedly “fantasy” books I have enjoyed greatly, such as the Myst series of books that were the basis of the video games, and L.E. Modesett’s Ghost of the Revalator. Even then, both of these books were character driven, the first was about revenge and hatred destroying a great society (and an attempt to rebuild it), and the second about a former spy getting caught up in a dangerous venture.

    Not all “science fiction” requires a suspension of belief. The 2001: A Space Odyssey series of stories is quite plausible in terms of the human technology, and is an engaging story. 

    I’m pretty sure that Kim isn’t inferring this, but there is certainly a difference between Bill Whittle’s essay on “Then a Miracle Occurs” and between a “leap of faith” that is required to enjoy the stories of science fiction. Thus, not all people who enjoy sci-fi believe in fantastical solutions to real world problems, and not all liberals are sci-fi fans.

    Author ID: 2436 | 4/11/2007 09:07 AM CST | #86525
  27. I won’t go on as I’ve said my piece, but I do not believe that 1% of science fiction is worth the paper it’s printed on.  Even some of the stuff mentioned as “classic” is horrible clap trap.  The writing is on a par with most hero comic books.  It’s mostly crap with a worship of material (science and technology) rather than on the soul/human spirit.

    Look at the way folks fawn over Thomas Edison, when he wasn’t a very nice or good man.  The value in the classics isn’t to make a living, but to make a good person.  People will say, But he invented shit! So what!  He was a horrible person who took advantage of others for his own gain/ego.  He learned nothing of substance.  He’s not someone I’d have been interested in having to dinner.  He wasn’t an interesting person.  Compare/contrast him with someone like Benjamin Franklin.  THAT was a man.  He had more than a single interest/ability.

    We know how to solve address every problem under the sun by being able to apply history properly.  That doesn’t mean people will do it and that’s the greatest trick of all.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 4/11/2007 09:24 AM CST | #86527
  28. “..I have to write something believable, without that suspension of disbelief, and which obeys all the laws of physics.”

    But how many times have we just known that we understood the laws of physics, only to be proven wrong later? (The world is flat, obviously. The sun orbits around the earth, of course.  Anyone who questions it is a madman. etc..)

    I think that is a value of sci-fi; questioning scientific ideas that are accepted as truth. It opens the mind to exploration.

    Author ID: 8969 | 4/11/2007 09:29 AM CST | #86529
  29. Kim,

    While I find your philosophies generally agreeable, there are times I completely disagree with you.  This is one, and I’m taking the bait. 

    Sci-Fi need be no less “real” than any other fiction genre.  A few years ago, I read Bradbury’s 1951 short story collection “The Illustrated Man”.  Many of the stories, while set in the future, dealt with modern issues.  And more importantly, he has done an excellent job of witting about science in a timeless manner!  The science he wrote in the 50s is just as believable now!

    Author ID: 7831 | 4/11/2007 09:48 AM CST | #86535
  30. As someone mentioned, “Hard” Sci-Fi usually beaks no laws, just extrapolates the application of current technology.

    Kim,

    For this reason, I disagree with you rather strongly.  I am a big fan of David Weber’s “Honor Harrington” seires, and these books do not by any measure fit into your definition of “Science Fiction”.  There is no suspension of the laws of physics in these books, per se; technological advances that seem to bend said rules a little are explained in detail and seem feasible enough.  Thus, the technological premise of Weber’s stories is by no means “unreal”; in fact, the man seems to know his physics quite well and puts the knowledge to good effect.  To give some background, the physical innovations in question revolve mainly around interstellar travel and space warfare (the books are essentially about a Napoleonic Wars-style conflict on an interstellar scale).  The storyline itself is quite independent of said innovations, however; take away the fancy spaceships and missiles, and substitute with current technology, and you’ll still end up with something that’s perfectly readable.  I suppose it is here that it differs from mainstream science fiction, which is indeed mostly junk.

    The series is, in fact, largely what you make of it.  Should you decide to read it as an epic account of desperate space battles against an unrelenting enemy (aka “stuff blowing up"), well, you sure won’t be disappointed.  But, you will have missed an in-depth analysis of what it means, and takes, to be a leader, an equally in-depth analysis of revolutionary governments, and a heck of a political thriller which contains some lessons that are quite relevant to today’s situation—not to mention an excellent study of human condition. 

    If you dismiss something like this out of hand, you are needlessly missing an excellent piece of literature.  I recommend you take a look at the Honor Harrington series, and see if your opinion of science fiction hasn’t changed by the time you’re finished.

    --Jim

    Author ID: 8180 | 4/11/2007 09:50 AM CST | #86536
  31. This thread has become Tanner part Deux.

    Author ID: 9703 | 4/11/2007 09:54 AM CST | #86537
  32. To be difficult, ALL fiction is based on accepting at least one unreal premise, or it would, by definition, not be fiction.

    Once you accept fiction at all, I think you are being shortsighted and foolish to reject sci-fi out of hand. True, nost of it is crap. But then according to sci-fi writer Theodore Sturgeon in his famous Law, 90% of it is crap. Of course the (valid) corollary is that 90% of *anything* is crap. So you have to have some experience and knowledge to be able to tell what’s crap from what’s not.

    There is lots of stuff that gets labeled as sci-fi. One on end there’s hard sci-fi, in which *nothing* happens that is outside the bounds of the laws of physics as we currently understand them, the only difference is some degree of extrapolation of technology. Many of the best workers in this sub-genre are actual working physics professors.

    On the other end is purest fantasy that is dressed up in “scientific” window dressing. This type of stuff is often called sci-fi but is really fantasy. David Drake’s “sci-fi” falls in this area, so it’s not *automatically* bad. (Remember Sturgeon’s Law.) What Bill Whittle talks about is traditional, rigorous (of a sort) sci-fi, which is somewhere in the middle.

    One thing I would like to point out, is that *every* good work of fiction, be it sci-fi, fantasy, detective novels, what have you, MUST follow internally consistent rules. The only difference between the different forms is how far from the rules of “reality” the internal story rules are allowed to stray. In a well-written sci-fi or fantasy story the rules may not be the same as the everyday, but there ARE rules- This is no magical thinking, no wish-fulfillment. In fact figuring out what those internal rules *are* can be half the fun; additionally IMO the ability to ferret out the hidden rules an environment runs by is one hell of a useful skill to learn.

    BTW, as for character-buiding… try reading some Gordon Dickson. Particularly his shorter fiction. Maybe ‘In the Bone’,’The Man From Earth’, or ‘On Messenger Mountain’.

    If you categorically reject ‘fantastic’ fiction you’re going to missing out on an awful lot, and I’m not just talking about Homer. You just need some knowledge and experience to help you pick out the crap.

    Now if you admit that you don’t *have* that knowlege and you’re not likely to get it so you don’t want to take chances, that’s different. And there you have help.

    Author ID: 362 | 4/11/2007 09:55 AM CST | #86539
  33. You don’t have to violate any laws of science to write a science fiction story.  Now, the “never violate more than one” rule is a good one, or you end up with psionic mutants riding around in spaceships with midichlorians in their blood - the “craptacular” works that many associate with the worst in the genre.

    As Sturgeon’s Law says it, “"Ninety percent of science fiction is crud, but that’s because ninety percent of everything is crud.”

    You can cite all of those “classics” as a counterargument about SF writing, but you also don’t note the mass of forgettable, turgid, useless “real” writing that got passed over during the centuries that those books were sitting on various people’s “classics” shelves.

    For every Dumas, there’s a dozen Francois Neverheardofems.  For every Dickens, there’s a roomful of penny-dreadful writers who were forgotten a week after their stories were published.

    Telling us that you don’t like science fiction because of all of the bad writing just shows that you haven’t spent a couple of centuries throwing out the bulk of the SF catalog, while you were picking out those hundred or so “real” books that are now considered to be “classics.”

    The first real “science fiction” novel was written by a depressed little gal during the bad part of the Little Ice Age.  You might have heard of it.  It was called “Frankenstein.”

    Then there’s all of those third-rate authors who dirtied their hands with SF, like Mark Twain, or Edgar Allan Poe, or H G Wells, or Jules Verne, or…

    Well, you get the picture.

    Author ID: 7599 | 4/11/2007 10:01 AM CST | #86540
  34. My only quibble is with singling out Sci Fi as somehow different from any other genre of popular fiction.  Have you ever read a romance novel?  A detective “thriller?” A John Grisham “legal thriller?” Anything by Patricia Cornwell?  They’re all, with few exceptions, utter crap.  Literary junk food.  With a few notable exceptions their writers rise and fall with the mercurial frequency of Country Western stars.  Within a few years they’re relegated to the remainder aisles and second-hand stores, and rightly so. 

    There’s crap fiction, and there’s good fiction, there’s that which lasts, and there’s that which serves its most useful function holding up the too-short table leg or turning into compost in the garden. 

    Reminds me of something I heard somewhere a few years ago: “90 percent of everything is crap.” LOL  Certainly we believe it’s true of music, movies, television and “modern art”, why would fiction be any different?

    Author ID: 7544 | 4/11/2007 10:36 AM CST | #86549
  35. Oh, for fuck’s sake. Every time I post something the tiniest bit critical about science fiction, people act like I’ve pissed on their personal flag. Then I get the “if you don’t like sci-fi, it’s because you haven’t read this work” response.

    For Those Who Missed The Point:

    This post was NOT about science fiction: it was about the mistake of predicating a philosophy on some kind of unrealistic premise. Science fiction was used as an analogy—it was not a condemnation of the whole fucking genre.

    For the record: I don’t enjoy reading futuristic stuff, or fantasy either. I have read lots of it, and frankly, it bores me. When it comes to fiction, I enjoy historical novels, simply because I enjoy history. If someone tells me they hate historical fiction, I shrug, and carry on.

    Oh, and for the record: Heinlein’s Starship Troopers is crap.

    Details at ten.

    0 Author ID: 1 | 4/11/2007 10:50 AM CST | #86553
  36. Without joining in with my own suggestions of favourite sci-fi books/authors, one aspect of sci-fi that I have not seen mentioned up-thread is that it is one of the few more-or-less contemporary sources of adventure stories in the R. L. Stevenson mode. Depending on personal likes and aptitudes, Heinlein’s juvenilia may be more instantly enthralling than Stevenson. Certainly the bright paperback may tend to be picked up earlier than the hoary old hard-back - when, that is, the owner of said hard-back is even willing to relinquish it to children!

    Personally I love both Heinlein and Stevenson, though in very different ways - and I discovered Stevenson long before Heinlein, mainly because my parents thought of sci-fi in the same way TS and you do. For this reason, some are trying to re-brand sci-fi as SF, or speculative fiction. I can’t really see the point, as the trash has become part of the genre’s subculture, chewed up, digested and used as fertilizer.

    Arguments about scientific verisimilitude tend to miss the point, I feel. Pseudo-scientific dei ex machina are IMHO as bad as as any other type. In any case part of the appeal of certain sci-fi is precisely that aspect of playing with the rules. If I bend just this rule, but then work out the consequences to an obsessive level of detail, what sort of setting do I have for the story? (Outside of short stories, e.g. Heinlein’s “And he built a crooked house”, I require the good yarn as well!) This is part of why geeks tend to love sci-fi. However, serious geeks of my acquaintance love non-fiction, historical fiction, etc. just as much.

    You are welcome to sample my bookshelves any time. While I don’t quite have the number of classics that I would like to, this is largely due to the fact that my parents have ALL of them, and since leaving home I have moved house at least once a year. This tends to inhibit collecting of books which I can comfortably rely on being able to acquire easily for the foreseeable future, even for bookworms such as my wife and me.

    Author ID: 9917 | 4/11/2007 11:00 AM CST | #86556
  37. Actually a lot of Science Fiction does not indulge in the suspension of ANY law of physics. Robert Heinlein’s classic THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS is a prime example. Arthur C. Clarke’s THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE is another.
    In the late ‘70s there was even a school of SF ("Sci-Fi by the way is treated about on a par with an ethnic slur by Science Fiction fans.) that not only postulated no broken laws of physics, but no technology that WE DO NOT ALREADY HAVE.
    Perhaps the most famous example of this school is the classic LUCIFER’S HAMMER by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. (It’s also a good work to read to get the feel for disaster prepredness.)
    I would suggest that Mr. Whittle try reading Ben Bova’s THE CRAFT OF WRITING SCIENCE FICTION THAT SELLS. If he had read it he would be aware that the basic fact of Science Fiction is that it is NOT about breaking the laws of physics, or about future technologies.
    IT’S ABOUT HUMAN STRUGGLE AGAINST ADVERSITY

    Author ID: 7522 | 4/11/2007 11:04 AM CST | #86557
  38. The flipside of Staff Martin’s point is that it makes no sense to talk about the value (or lack thereof) of the entire genre of science fiction, because SF novels and stories are not interchangeable. Some of them are bona fide classics that will still be read a thousand years from now, while others are hack writing that will be forgotten by next summer.

    Let me give you an example from a sub-genre that is the epitome of forgettable hack writing: movie novelizations. These are novel-length adaptations of screenplays, written quickly so that they’ll be on store shelves when the movie itself is playing, and they exist solely as a part of the movie’s publicity campaign. They don’t have to be any good, and they usually aren’t. And they go out of print within a year or two, vanishing without a trace.

    But there are a couple of exceptions. One is Fantastic Voyage by Isaac Asimov. A lot people think that he wrote the novel first and the movie was then based on it, because the novel is much better and actually was in stores before the movie premiered. But no; it was an adaptation. It was in stores first because Asimov wrote very fast and the movie business works very slowly. But why is it better? Because Asimov was a professor of biochemistry and when he looked at the screenplay, he saw that the science in it made no sense. Humans who have been miniaturized to the size of a microorganism cannot breathe unminiaturized air; their bodies cannot metabolize molecules that are almost big enough to see! So Asimov decided to rework the entire story so that it not only made sense, but was actually an educational tour of the human body from the inside. Watch the movie and you won’t learn anything (although it has Raquel Welch in it, so I didn’t mind very much), but read the novel and you’ll learn anatomy, physics, and biochemistry.

    Like I said, most movie novelizations disappear quickly. Fantastic Voyage is still in print today, four decades after it was written.

    The other exception I’m aware of is Orson Scott Card’s adaptation of The Abyss, which devotes the first three chapters to backstory and character development for the three main characters. These chapters built on the screenplay so effectively that director James Cameron gave them to the actors, who used them to develop their performances in the movie.

    What’s my point? Generalizations about an entire genre are basically meaningless. Even in the most trite and cliche-riddled genre, a talented author can still create excellent stories that will stand the test of time. Science fiction is like that: a lot of it is silly or unrealistic, but some of its works are classic literature.

    Author ID: 9527 | 4/11/2007 11:22 AM CST | #86558
  39. The next time someone brings up this subject, please order a few dozen pizzas grin

    Author ID: 200 | 4/11/2007 11:26 AM CST | #86559
  40. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks Sci Fi SUCKS!

    And don’t get me started on those horrible Matrix movies…

    Author ID: 20 | 4/11/2007 11:30 AM CST | #86561
  41. Reminds me of something I heard somewhere a few years ago: “90 percent of everything is crap.”

    Sturgeon’s Law, named for (ahem) author of speculative fiction Theodore Sturgeon. Someone allegedly once told Sturgeon that 90 percent of his stuff was crap. Unruffled, he replied, “That’s true. Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

    Author ID: 1448 | 4/11/2007 11:30 AM CST | #86562
  42. Kim (and everybody else!),

    Sorry if I started the defense of sci-fi a bit heavily; I find that some of the books defined as classics are anything but classical.  Most of the current book market is anything but worthwhile reading - my interest in suggesting certain books was to offer a few alternatives to the conventional “go-to” sci fi authors.  I was a precocious reader (started at 3, reading Tolkien at 7, doing reports and getting in trouble about Shakespeare at 11) and found that what I enjoyed about science fiction was reading the story and then trying to figure out the “why” of science that supported it.  I know Starship Troopers is crud - but I do like Heinlein’s premise and call to arms.  The social situation at the time of the writing makes the book important, even as Twain’s Huck Finn is even more relevant given the state of the U.S. and the world at the time. 

    By the way - any military buffs out there interested in Afghanistan and the Russians should check out The Bear Went Over the Mountain and The Other Side of the Mountain.  I know the first is available online (for free, even!) and I think the second is there too.  Kinda dry at points; all vignettes about the engagements between the Soviets and the Afghans.  The important part is that these books are some of the things being used to teach us about fighting there.  (OT slight rant warning) When people post about casualties and bad things happening in Afghanistan and Iraq I want to make them read about what happened to the Soviet Union - which deployed more soldiers with fewer rules of engagement and far shorter supply lines.  (End rant)

    Be well and be kind.  One of my teachers once told me fiction is a prism through which we can examine the separate rays of reality and perception.

    SGT Dave

    Author ID: 9913 | 4/11/2007 11:31 AM CST | #86563
  43. Science fiction was used as an analogy—it was not a condemnation of the whole fucking genre. For the record: I don’t enjoy reading futuristic stuff, or fantasy either. I have read lots of it, and frankly, it bores me.

    Nothing wrong with that, Kim. I didn’t read it as a condemnation, just as a statement that SF doesn’t do anything for you. If that’s the case, I can’t think of any reason that you should waste any more time on it. (And I’m a dyed-in-the-wool SF fan. Doesn’t mean I think everyone ought to be.)

    One of my friends (a guy I’ve known for over three decades, since we were in high school together) is a fiddler in a band that plays Celtic folk music. I’ve been to a couple of their performances, and as much as I wish I could be a fan of theirs, the truth is that all Celtic music sounds the same to me, and I get bored after listening to about five minutes of it. That doesn’t mean that I hate Celtic music, or that I think his band sucks—just that it’s not my cup of tea. He understands that, and he doesn’t take it personally that I’m not in the audience when his band plays.

    It’s a matter of personal taste, that’s all.

    Author ID: 9527 | 4/11/2007 11:33 AM CST | #86564
  44. I will make one observation that seems to have been lost in the duels with the pizza crusts.....

    The standards for judging science fiction are not those of conventional fiction.

    Conventional fiction rehashes standardized plots.  You can debate the number of plots available, but the fact remains that Shakespeare was quite openly lifting plot lines from much older works.

    Conventional fiction is therefore judged on execution.  Vivid characterization, the well-turned phrase, and so on.  Shakespeare isn’t respected for novelty in plots, but for phrasing that turned prose into poetry of the first water.

    Science fiction, as well as its kindred in the fantasy and alternate history genres, do not have the well-developed library of plots to draw from.  In these genres, the writer scores points partly with novelty....and far more with the creation of a plausible universe.  And it is that creation that is often what a work of science-fiction is judged on.  Does it hold together?  Or are there gaping holes in the logic presented by the author?

    Frankly, science-fiction is at its best doing one of two things...forcing us to face moral questions on paper before they raise their heads in reality, and as a canvas for Epic Fiction.

    Author ID: 200 | 4/11/2007 11:43 AM CST | #86566
  45. One more: ”God will provide”, or, in the vernacular, ”Insh’Allah.” That’s right: there’s no need to worry, because my imaginary friend will always help me out.

    I am keen on, “who gives a fuck”. Frankly, its hard to go wrong with that. Mortgage is late? Who gives a fuck. Your boyfriend left you? Who gives a fuck. Car broke down? Who gives a fuck.

    It sure makes dealing with stressful events easier when you’re not emotionally invested in the outcome.

    Author ID: 8152 | 4/11/2007 12:28 PM CST | #86581
  46. We know this, of course—at least, the more intelligent of us do—by saying things like ”Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he’ll eat all his life.”

    failing that there is always “light a man’s fire and he’ll be warm for a day. light the man on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life.”

    Author ID: 8152 | 4/11/2007 12:31 PM CST | #86582
  47. as for science fiction, i think it is a wonderful tool for critical thinking construction. realistically, a child should be able to think critically by 4 or 5. if they’re not able to by ‘reading age’, you’re pretty much at fault as a parent. im a couple years younger than you kim, but ive yet to see a child who wasn’t capable of questioning the basis of what an adult (or anyone else) says.

    its useful to encourage critical thinking, because if the child already thinks, “is this possible?” or “what can be done?” it will throw a new situation at them. it’ll teach them to test the thesis of every work, and give them a more receptive mind to accepting a particular work as fiction. if they’re able to read a science fiction novel and say, ‘this is is why this story doesn’t work’ they’re going to be more likely to be able to see a philosophical stance or scenario (i.e., the communist dream, the democrats’ agenda) and say, “hey, that uses the same devices, and doesn’t work either!”

    Author ID: 8152 | 4/11/2007 12:41 PM CST | #86585
  48. Then there’s “give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day; tie some weights to his ankles and toss him in the water, and the fishing will be great for weeks.”

    Author ID: 7599 | 4/11/2007 12:46 PM CST | #86587
  49. The best literature I’ve read in the last twenty years is the Neal Stevenson Cryptonomicon series.  It’s found in the science fiction section of the bookstore but the first three books are really historical fiction and the final would be contemporary.  The books are superbly written, meticulously researched and very entertaining.  They have an engrossing plot and several themes that will be appreciated by the readers of this site.

    If you enjoy reading (each book is well over a thousand pages and the first three should really be three volumes of one book), you owe it to yourself to check these out.

    Author ID: 7035 | 4/11/2007 01:53 PM CST | #86592
  50. Every once in a while, it’s nice to discover that the Mr. and Mrs. aren’t as omniscient as they sometimes seem, and can be ill-informed and mistaken about some subjects. wink

    Author ID: 78 | 4/11/2007 02:41 PM CST | #86596
  51. I might step on more toes than Kim did here.  I see ALL fiction in the same way Kim sees science fiction.
    No matter what premise all fiction is fantasy.  Now don’t take this as the idea that I hate fiction, I LOVE a good story. (science fiction, fantasy, historical, I will read it all I just ENJOY reading)

    I used to argue with my literature teachers all the time over it.  We would read some book or another and the teacher would then ask what the author was TRYING to say.  I would respond with the a basic outline of the book.  Of course, the teacher wanted the deeper meaning etc.  I always argued back that if the author had something to say, why did they not just say what they had to say instead of wrapping some meaning in to some novel.

    Now that I am older I understand that sometimes it was socially or legally unacceptable to say certain things so it needed to be hidden.  But mostly this was not required. So why.  I never got a good answer from the teachers.  The answer I came up with for my self was either:  the author wanted to get paid for writing what they wanted to say so put it in a novel people buy those, or, people just won’t listen what they had to say (or the author at least thought they would not) so put it in an engaging novel and people get the message none the wiser.

    Fiction just give the message some flavor like some tasty sauce on the nasty veggies will get the kid to eat them, the flavor from fiction gets people to at least look at your point.

    While Kim’s point that we should not run our lives based on some unreal premise, most here have turned it in to lets convice Kim to like our chosen flavor.  Relax, there are enough flavors for everyone to find the one they like.

    Author ID: 9865 | 4/11/2007 05:13 PM CST | #86600
  52. Great post, although I don’t think I’d refer to the Old Testament God as a “friend” exactly.

    My problem with scifi is that it puts boring characters in interesting situations. I haven’t read too much of it, but Solaris by Stanislaw Lem breaks this trend.

    Author ID: 7619 | 4/11/2007 05:48 PM CST | #86605
  53. I’m definitely going to have to agree to disagree with Kim and Connie on this.

    I learned to love reading when I discovered Heinlien, followed by Clarke, Asimov, and later Niven, Pournelle, Drake… I learned the concepts of self reliance, personal responsiblity, verifying data, not taking authority as gospel, not to mention a little science, math, astronomy, chemistry and physics, and was inspired to take them as subjects in school, even when electives and a struggle to keep up.

    I’ve read a lot of the ‘great classics and serious works” and I’d probably be a functional illiterate if that was all I had access to growing up.  I honestly cannot think of any book published before the 20th century that I enjoy reading again and again for pleasure.  And I can think of no work of fiction written in the 19th century or earlier that was as influential on me as Heinlein.  Non fiction, yes, especially the founding fathers, but I read those for duty and neccesisty, not because I enjoy them per se.

    Author ID: 85 | 4/11/2007 05:55 PM CST | #86606
  54. I really think what lights up the discussion wagon is the way and why people feel what they do about what they like to read.

    Reading is something intimate.  It is active without being so.  Regardless of genre, if a story is good, within a few pages, the book in my hands melts into a mist… and all I see is the story… If a book, no matter what it is, does not do that to me, then I put it down…

    I almost stumbled into an English minor in College.  I was two courses short, but needed to concentrate on History.  English lit I, Satire, English lit II, Science Fiction, American Lit I… I have likes and dislikes in them all.

    I love Science Fiction that someone here called “Hard” - I also enjoyed Ursula LeGuinn, Tolkein but I don’t classify those as Science Fiction… those Stories are FANTASY… different stuff to me… I won’t even consider Horror… I like sleeping at night....

    I am picky… and I do agree with what several people have said.  90% of EVERYTHING is CRAP. 

    Peace, Love, and Bobby Sherman… smirk

    Author ID: 8618 | 4/11/2007 06:09 PM CST | #86607
  55. Well don’t get me wrong about sci-fi.

    I was the world’s most feverish SF fan from the ages of 12 through about 17. I read a lot of the books, I went to some of the geeky “cons,” and I knew several movies line-for-line.

    Then I turned 18.

    Every so often, I’ll have a twinge of nostalgia when I pass the SF rack at a bookstore, or have the opportunity to flake out on a Saturday afternoon and watch a couple of classis SF films… but I never pick up a book, and I never watch those movies.

    I look at SF the same way I look at “Christian rock”: 99.99% of everything htat comes from self-described “Christian rock groups” is horrible… but when you find a rock song about Christ from U2, or the Waterboys, etc., they’re good or not good based on the merits of rock, not some sub-genre where the rules are bent and passes given. Likewise, 99.99% of the stuff that comes from self-proclaimed SF authors or filmmakers is crap, because they make movies or write books only after taking up the genre on its handicap, and banking on that handicap for otherwise reasonable people to spot it enough points to turn into a purchase… but sometimes you find a book from a good writer, or a film from a good director, that chooses the genre to help tell its story, and it’s good because it’s a good book or a good movie, not because it’s an SF book or movie.

    Author ID: 2714 | 4/11/2007 06:21 PM CST | #86608
  56. Welp, methinks there’s about three sub-genres here, sci-fi that doesn’t upend any laws of physics (Firefly, anyone?), another that allows the oversight of a single ‘law’, and anything goes, aka sci-fantasy.  LOTR is it’s own genre and Tolkien’s imitators have yet to come close. 

    John Campbell, the longtime editor of Astounding/Analog, preferred ‘hard’ scifi in the sense of being hard science/techno centric but the stories had to ‘work’ as stories, first.

    How about giving James Michenor’s ‘Space’ a look.  A writer rather than a scifi author.  Thought his ‘Alaska’ was decent and ‘Space’ didn’t seem too far removed.

    Author ID: 6681 | 4/11/2007 06:52 PM CST | #86610
  57. Bottom line, FICTION is a valuable teacher of morals and concepts that most people do NOT want to hear Monday - Saturday; they get enough moral lectures (they think) on Sunday.
    BUT; give ‘em a fancy-dancin’ FICTION story, by any fabulist, and they WILL swallow it, hook, line, and sinker.
    Some swallow historical fiction (Wilbur Smith is a good example, as is John Jakes, as is Herman Wouk), some swallow SF (the list is long IF you care), some chase bodice-rippers (no comment), and some people swear by (instead of AT) Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler.
    Guess what? I’ve read ALL of the above (YES, Kim, even a bodice-ripper or two, as research - not bad, not good, EHH), and as long as THE STORY is done based on the dilemna, not the Guillotine, the Starship, the CIA computer, or the D-cup bra, then the story can get the message across. BUT, if you focus on the tech, not the tale, FOR-GET IT!

    HOWEVER, Kim and Connie are 100% RIGHT about one thing; fiction comes AFTER the kid is emotionally mature enough to ASK QUESTIONS about it. Once they start questioning what they read, they’re ready to read all of it (although I’D draw a line at porn for kids too young to be sexually responsible - but that’s just me; YMMV).

    Catch ya at the next literary seminar, guys and gals!

    Jim

    Hey, THIS was fun!

    Author ID: 8889 | 4/11/2007 07:34 PM CST | #86611
  58. But how many times have we just known that we understood the laws of physics, only to be proven wrong later? (The world is flat, obviously.

    Les Nessman,
    Historically, you’ll have some deal of trouble pointing to real-life “flat-earth” theorizers. Both the roundness and circumference of the earth were known and calculated reasonably accurately as far back as Aristotle’s day. It’s a myth invented far later, apparently to polish the apple in regard to Christopher Columbus’ accomplishments.[/nitpick]

    Author ID: 9097 | 4/11/2007 11:29 PM CST | #86617
  59. I will just reiterate the “Read some Heinlein”, especially his stuff from before “Stranger in a Strange Land”. As he got older, he got weird. Everybody started running around nekkid with IQs of 180 plus.

    But.... read his other stuff.
    The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is all about running a revolution. It could be set in Australia (he uses Aussie slang regularly in it, as well as Russian). It’s a fantastically interesting case study in running a revolution and ensuring that you keep control of it after you’re done. One of the main characters is a prof and I’ve decided that Ben Franklin was the inspiration for that character.

    I credit him for making me a libertarian-type. I read his books at a young age, along with many others, and he taught me a lot.
    For instance, he gave me my definition of an “honest politician”. An honest politician is one who stays bought.

    One thing about Heinlein, he knew people. He usually got the direction technology would go wrong (he had slide rules in outer space and computers were the size of buildings and took many hours to make calculations) but he knew people.
    I learned so much about people long before I understood. Like the politician’s definition. He also wrote, “Always tell her she’s beautiful. Especially if she isn’t” and, one that has stood me in good stead my whole life, “If you’re in an argument with her and you realize you’re right, apologize.”
    He also made it absolutely clear that people are jerks and you can’t trust them.

    He made me cynical by age 9. My favorite books when I was in fourth grade were: The latest Hardy Boys book, Papillon, the Godfather and the number one book was Stranger in a Strange Land. All the hippies wanted to be Valentine Michael Smith, I wanted to be Jubal Harshaw.
    It’s funny, my teacher was a hippy and would probably be absolutely devastated if I told him that I was a conservative/libertarian because he gave me that book.

    Author ID: 7066 | 4/12/2007 07:57 AM CST | #86665
  60. With my sons, I have found they get drawn to what we as parents read. Which for my wife and I are a fair bit of science fiction and fantasy. But I’ve also gotten them onto history and the classics. What I’ve found I needed to do, since we home school, is sit down and talk with them after they read something. Show them what is literary constructs, what is just the writer moralizing, what is authentic potential, and what is down right human.  Nothing teaches a boy the intellectual horrors as well as motives of war like the Illiad, and that wonderful grandfather of western literature fits all the bill of fantasy.

    Author ID: 8320 | 4/12/2007 12:36 PM CST | #86730
  61. I find science fiction to be an enjoyable escape.  As a child I read and re-read pot-boiler sci-fi like Harry Harrison’s Deathworld trilogy, the Stainless Steel Rat series, and Keith Laumer’s Retief novels.  These authors utilized hyperbole and irony to make their point about social conventions and attitudes they wished to ridicule, and were usually just crackling good adventure stories; they made me want to read more.  These days I read George R. R. Martin’s Song of Fire and Ice series knowing that while dragons aren’t real, the dramatic conflicts which occupy these characters are both compelling and believable.

    Sci fi can be analogous to the real world, or it can be mindlessly escapist.  Drowning in a place with no basis for comparison in the real world can be damaging, sure.  So can too much of anything.

    Author ID: 8025 | 4/12/2007 01:18 PM CST | #86735
  62. Veeshir,
    I hear ya.  RAH also came up with the best definition of Love that I’ve ever seen: (paraphrasing) When another person’s happiness is absolutely necessary for your own.

    Don’t you sometimes see Kim as Lazarus Long? smile

    Author ID: 78 | 4/12/2007 02:26 PM CST | #86741
  63. Don’t you sometimes see Kim as Lazarus Long?

    Hmmmmm, grumpy, stubborn, intelligent, independent thinker, constantly armed, a passion for red heads… Nah, no similarity there!  tongue rolleye

    Author ID: 85 | 4/12/2007 07:51 PM CST | #86768
  64. I gotta agree on Lazarus Long.
    Or maybe Jubal Harshaw.
    Heinlein is also the guy who wrote, “An armed society is a polite society.”

    Another reason I think Kim would like him is because he was all about personal responsibility and he would have loved the “Pussification” essay. Heck, he actively made fun of girly boys. Methusaleh’s Children is all about how he hated the pussification of America.

    Seriously Kim, give “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” a chance. I think you would really like it.
    Heinlein writes great stories set in a sci-fi environment, but he’s writing about people and not about the made up science. I don’t think he ever inverted the sub-space particle field even once.

    Author ID: 7066 | 4/13/2007 07:22 AM CST | #86786
  65. Here’s a link with some of Heinlein’s quotes.
    Here’s a few that I think Kim could have said.

    I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

    The difference between science and the fuzzy subjects is that science requires reasoning while those other subjects merely require scholarship.

    Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again.

    And a great example of clearly seeing people for what they are
    Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire..

    Author ID: 7066 | 4/13/2007 07:42 AM CST | #86793

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