Much Safer

April 16, 2007
10:35 AM CST

I tend not to comment on breaking news, because I prefer to have most or all of the facts in before I do so.

But to forestall the hysterical screams of the gun-controllers who would make hay out of the dead bodies of Virginia Tech students, allow me to post, thanks to several alert Readers, this little snippet from last year:

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn’t get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill’s defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. “I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.” [my emphasis]

So, fifty-odd dead and wounded students later, it appears as though the current law does not, in fact, do anything to protect students from someone who wishes to do them harm.

They might have felt safe on campus… but they weren’t.

This horrible incident is not a rationale for more gun control; it is a case study of the effects of gun control: providing a murderer with unarmed, helpless victims.

Comments

Bottom of Comments | Original Post

I was hoping to suggest to you that you delay a post on this mess until the facts (or whatever the media tells us) are a little clearer.  It is still my advice.  Regards . . .

Author ID: 9783 | 4/16/2007 11:50 AM CST | #87056


Spot on, Kim.  However, you know that just as surely as day follows night, Chuckie Schumer and the rest of the nutjob anti-gun crowd will be calling for ever-stricter gun controls as they dance on the freshly-dug graves of these victims. 

I hate like Hell to make this in any way political - but we will have it forced upon us (see above).  As such...I only hope that a few of the parents of these kids, once they’ve gone through the grieving process a bit, will have the wisdom and courage to speak out AGAINST carry and ownership restrictions.  It has happened before (WRT Columbine), and in Virginia one would have to hope that it will happen again.

Author ID: 7384 | 4/16/2007 11:51 AM CST | #87057


Coach,

Regardless of what facts come in, it’s clear that gun control, in this case, didn’t do what it was supposed to do.

0 Author ID: 1 | 4/16/2007 11:55 AM CST | #87058


Yet another confirmation that weakness is provocative.

Author ID: 7601 | 4/16/2007 11:55 AM CST | #87059


I hate not being able to carry a pistol on campus. I don’t carry often anyway, but when I get out of class at eight PM and have to walk a mile across campus to my car or even a few miles across the interstate to my apartment, I always wish I had something on me. At the beginning of the semester I had a scary little run in, and luckily I was able to defuse it, but a 38 snub in my pocket would have made me feel a lot safer about being alone and up against a carload of drunk dumbasses, which is apparently a recurring theme here in the land of entrapment.

What if just one of these dorm kids had broken the law, kept an “illegal” weapon in their room, and dropped this asshole before he’d killed more than a few people? I wonder if the screams to ban weapons would be just as loud.

Author ID: 8417 | 4/16/2007 11:56 AM CST | #87060


On another web site I just read, a VA Tech student claimed that concealed carry is allowed for students but not for faculty there, which is odd to say the least if true. Being a state school as far as I know, that doesn’t sound plausible, but time will tell.

No matter, there was obviously a serious security screwup since it seems to have taken so long before there was any response, and it supposedly started at 7:15 AM which is before most students are near classrooms/buildings. The school also supposedly installed an emergency announcement system 2 months ago, but it wasn’t used. People just came to their respective buildings and after hearing gunfire they were locked into classrooms hoping attention would not draw upon them.

Author ID: 8165 | 4/16/2007 11:58 AM CST | #87062


It’s 2:55 EST and what Sam said is already happening :( Yet another example of why we need to fight for our 2nd amendment rights or they will be taken from us by people who are motivated by fear and ambition rather than wisom and understanding. I am a college student at UMBC, and I could easily see this same scenario happen at our campus.

Author ID: 9065 | 4/16/2007 11:59 AM CST | #87063


The Little Coach - Now or later won’t change the fact that these people were murdered without a chance to defend themselves.  One concealed handgun could have ended this spree much earlier. 

Now we just wait and see if was a screweed up kid, jilted lover, or jihadist we let mow down people like sheep in the name of “safety.”

Author ID: 8662 | 4/16/2007 11:59 AM CST | #87064


A single student or faculty member carrying could have prevented scores of deaths and injuries.  When will the GFW’s get it through their heads that rules and laws such as this only serve to disarm the innocent, not to take the tools of murder from the hands of the guilty.

Honzie

Author ID: 9829 | 4/16/2007 12:00 PM CST | #87065


As long as this nation is partially disarmed, the massacres will continue.

Author ID: 1358 | 4/16/2007 12:04 PM CST | #87066


Well whoda thunk it, a law/rule banning carrying guns was disregarded by someone planning on killing someone.
Sounds like you need even more gun laws, just like those which are so successful in Blighty.

Author ID: 7344 | 4/16/2007 12:13 PM CST | #87067


Same sad old story - sheep being slaughtered by a predator. For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone does not just carry REGARDLESS of the so-called law if it contradicts self-defence unalienable rights.

Author ID: 7763 | 4/16/2007 12:14 PM CST | #87068


I cannot understand why someone does not just carry REGARDLESS of the so-called law if it contradicts self-defence unalienable rights.

Fear of prosecution, jail time and the permanent loss of not only one’s ability to legally purchase firearms, but also to have any job with the Fed.gov, state.gov, or anything with a security clearance, licensing or bonding attached to it. 

IOW, we as a species are in the process of being tamed by government, much as we tamed horses, wolves and cattle.

Author ID: 7384 | 4/16/2007 12:35 PM CST | #87071


Interesting quote from abcnews.com

“The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed,” spokeswoman Dana Perino said

What exactly does that mean?  The President was referring to President Bush.

Author ID: 9594 | 4/16/2007 12:36 PM CST | #87072


I watched Fox News starting at 7:00am and followed the story most of the morning.  One of the student callers into the show said that she was on her way to class when she heard shots fired, and since she had “been target shooting since she was 6 years old” she was well aware what the sounds were: “Gun shots.” She then went on to say that she ducked for cover immediately, and advised others.  She and another male student were also able to “rescue” an injured student by “staying low” in order to get to him, and pull him to safety so that he could get the attention he needed.  Details will unfold, I am sure.
That speaks volumes to me!  A “girl” aware of the sounds of gun shots, trained and immediately (brillantly) ducks for cover to assess the situation.  Stays calm, sane, protects herself and others because of her target practice and familiarity of guns.

Author ID: 7903 | 4/16/2007 12:41 PM CST | #87073


I do not wish for the death of anyone, but if someone must die, let it be Larry Hincker. Is that too harsh?

Author ID: 9086 | 4/16/2007 12:43 PM CST | #87074


Fear of prosecution, jail time and the permanent loss of not only one’s ability to legally purchase firearms, but also to have any job with the Fed.gov, state.gov, or anything with a security clearance, licensing or bonding attached to it.

I understand all that Sam, however, as Jeff Cooper says in “Principles of Self-Defense”, the first thing is to SURVIVE - anthing that comes after it can be dealt with. This of course presupposes that any consequence of a mortal fight is better than dying. Second, if you are carrying and there are no metal detectors, how does anyone KNOW you are carrying? That is as long as you do it right.

As an aside, we need to know if this guy was a mooslim talabani type. Only then will we know the full story. Don’t be surprised if the “asian american” turns out to be a muslim and the “authorities” try to keep it under wraps.

Rehearse for success the following:

Arm yourself.

Get training.

Practice.

CARRY the thing!

It’s the only way to be sure.

In our lifetimes, we are NEVER going to have a president who will come out and say life comes down to personal responsibilities - arm yourself and take on that task. You just have to do it.

Author ID: 7763 | 4/16/2007 12:48 PM CST | #87075


“The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed,” spokeswoman Dana Perino said

The “law” was followed, and people are dead.  VCDL tried hard to get rid of the carry restrictions last year.  Now we pay the price for stupid laws.

It’s all over the news here.  Being relatively close by, we’ll be feeling the effects of this for a long time yet.

Author ID: 2166 | 4/16/2007 01:00 PM CST | #87076


I found this little exchange on Democratic Underground of all places:

sfexpat2000 (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message

16. Why do these idiots with guns head for SCHOOLS.

piedmont (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #16

24. It’s the source of their stress, and it’s a gun-free zone.
It happens at work-places too.

hogwyld (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #16

25. Just another reason why we need
to regulate, register, ALL guns, and to even ban some through the AWB. Of course the gungeon people will say this is one isolated incident among way too many…

220. They already banned guns at VT.
Show_Me _The_Truth (553 posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #25

Obviously this strategy worked .

Squatch (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #24

33. Here’s the VT Policy
The university’s employees, students, and volunteers, or any visitor or other third party attending a sporting,
entertainment, or educational event, or visiting an academic or administrative office building or residence hall, are
further prohibited from carrying, maintaining, or storing a firearm or weapon on any university facility, even if the
owner has a valid permit, when it is not required by the individual’s job, or in accordance with the relevant
University Student Life Policies.

slackmaster (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
37.  Guns generally aren’t allowed on school campuses A school provides a plethora of unarmed potential victims

sfexpat2000 (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37

49. But, don’t most shootings happen between people who know each other or have I watched too many episodes of Dragnet?

slackmaster (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #49

52. That may be the case, but a school provides a “safe” setting for violence.  Because any defensive response has to come in from the outside.

fexpat2000 (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-16-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #52

55. So, the safe environment is actually an invitation.  I’d never thought of it that way.

Imagine, RTKBA rationality at DU!  What’s next, snow in April?

otpu

Author ID: 7974 | 4/16/2007 01:02 PM CST | #87077


Well, I’ve got at least one story contradicting the thing said by the VA Tech student about concealed carry being allowed for students. Virginia House Bill 1572 was proposed in 2005 by Shenandoah County, Va., Republican Del. Todd Gilbert after a VA Tech student with a state-issued concealed handgun permit was arrested and charged only with “unlawfully” carrying a handgun on campus.

Author ID: 8165 | 4/16/2007 01:03 PM CST | #87078


Okay… This is personal… I am heartbroken.  My mind is fogged… my head aches.
This is my school.  My Alma Mater…

1. at 730 or so easter time… a shot or shots were fired in West Ambler Johnston Hall (West AJ) Someone was killed, and the police called… (Other details are not going to be relayed because they are not solidly sourced.)

2. at 1030 or so, an individual waving a gun and shouting something scares the bejabbers out of students in RANDOLPH HALL (An engineering building on the back side of the academic quad)

3. shortly after this event, shooting starts in Norris Hall (an engineering building across the street from Norris Hall)

4. it is reported that the shooter has chained the main entrance doors to Norris Hall, and is systematically walking down the hallways of the 2nd floor (at least) shooting into classrooms.

5. at some point after the Norris Hall shooting began, the police gained access and killed the gunman.

Physical facts folks might not know.  Virginia Tech is huge. 
West AJ and East AJ are connected by a two floor conference room, common area, study area sub building, and the entire complex houses some 900 students, mostly Freshman - and RA’s.  This is a major dorm, and an event there, like a shooting should have triggered a general shutdown of the school.  IMMEDIATELY…
By way of distances, AJ is roughly 3 miles from Norris Hall… really closer to 4.  If you imagine the Drill Field as a racetrack oval, evenly distributed in the middle of a rectangle of almost 1.75 times the size.  AJ would be in the lower left corner of the rectangle, and Norris would be on the back side of the top of the rectangle not quite to the corner.  That is a bunch of territory to cover.

So, this monster did his first deed, in one part of campus, and then proceeded to one of the farthest points on the campus from the original killing, to commence his murderous insanity.  If this is not evidence of premeditation I don’t know what is.  The Tech police are pretty good, but with 26,000 students, in and out of campus, and probably 10,000 residents, it is crowded, and the police resources get stretched thin.  This ghoul knew that there would be a flexible response to a single shooting, but that the campus police would be mostly occupied at the furthest point from where he planned to kill as many people as he could.

Only a Liberal, emoting rather than thinking, would believe that this could have been foreseen and prevented with what, I am not too sure.  What would have prevented most of the killing is if someone else in Norris Hall was armed with more than a laptop and a desk.  That is logical.  A determined murderer cannot be stopped by emotive means of banning tools, or introduction more bureaucratic nonsense.

I would like to think that if it had been me in that building, being hunted by a madman, that I would at least realize that the immediate rational solution was to fight back with whatever was at hand, as hard as possible.

Unfortunately we have become a society that deals with situations by “negotiation and accommodation” instead of “fight or flight”.  This instinct is the death knell to ordered liberty, because it ultimately trades life for a hope of mercy.  The answer is that we must re-learn to fight back when attacked, not cower in fear, begging our killers to be gentle.

R/TMF
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Virginia Tech)
BA, History, Class of 1981

Author ID: 8618 | 4/16/2007 01:37 PM CST | #87080


I live here( in Virginia)
I work in a bldg. full of VT grads and parents: most are freaked out.
Several have already said: “if they’d let our kids carry on campus, this wouldn’t happen.”
Currently reaction is shock… all blame is placed on the shooter.
Negligence is being blamed on the VT admin and ‘Campus Police’.
Notice the brackets around ‘Campus Police’ : I have my reasons for it.
1. my friend and coworker(2006 VT grad) had 3 dorm room break-ins: he got tired of it and moved off campus.  to quote him: “CP are a joke, they spend more time playing grabass with the coeds and becoming bigger lard-asses than they do securing the dorms: security is and always will be a huge joke at VT.”
2.  I called another friend, a VASP LT., around 9 AM, about the earlier shootings.  His response: “I don’t know anything- we just got the request for investigative assistance from the CP and the VT admin.  We are on our way there now.” He was in RICHMOND at the time- even at Code 3 speeds, it’d take him 1.5 hrs. + to get to Blacksburg.

VT Admin, the VT Campus Police, and the GFWs in the VA Gen’l Assembly have really screwed the pooch on this one.

Author ID: 9082 | 4/16/2007 01:37 PM CST | #87081


Guns are allowed. In VA no government entity has the power to create gun laws other than the VA General Assembly, a.k.a.  the state. Many schools in VA do not follow that and furthermore actively go after students and faculty who want to carry. They couldn’t do shit to me or any other citizen with a permit and the right to carry in the state of VA. Hell you could open carry and they may harass you but they couldn’t really do anything as state law, through preemption, trumps all other local laws. The bill you mentioned would have stopped the schools from enacting regulations that would effectively stop students and employees from carrying a gun while on campus. As to the state law, government property is a place you can carry as it is not restricted by law. Hence you can carry in police stations and even the General Assembly building itself. The only restrictions for government buildings are courthouses.

Author ID: 7161 | 4/16/2007 01:44 PM CST | #87083


FredZ: No.
Many thanks to your readers who sent you the link and to you, Kim, for posting it. I have printed it out. I suggest everyone do so and carry it with them, if practical, into situations where some GFW is likely to sound off. Time for some truth-telling.

Author ID: 2489 | 4/16/2007 01:46 PM CST | #87084


The Brady Bunch has already released a statement about the VT shooting. Again they call for more ‘gun control’ and decry (paraphrased) “the continuing availablility of weapons of ever increasing leathality”.....weren’t we able to buy BARs and Thompsons with drum mags up until the first 2A infringements became statutory back in the thirties?  I don’t recall reading much history about senseless slaughter occuring in public institutions of learning evry couple of years back then.

Author ID: 1894 | 4/16/2007 01:49 PM CST | #87086


I can’t add much to what’s already been said. WE know that if there had been armed resistance, this would NOT have happened. Or at least to nowhere near what it did. The girl did well, using cover and concealment for rescue, but what if she’d been armed? She could have ended this quickly. The wolves hunt sheep, NOT sheepdogs. Gun free zones are target rich environments for wackos and jihadists. Which was this? Nothing from the MSM? Hmmm. Odds?

Author ID: 6430 | 4/16/2007 01:56 PM CST | #87088


One other thought: I just used Fox News’ “Email your comments to Foxnews.com” link to ask them to publicize the Roanoke Times’ article about the carry bill that was killed. Maybe if enough people point it out to them, they will make a big point of it…

Author ID: 2489 | 4/16/2007 02:02 PM CST | #87089


From Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266374,00.html
It appears the the BATF is now on the job doing work on the gun so they can balme someone else besides the shooter.

Senior official with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms
and Explosives told FOX News that agency’s response to the
Virginia Tech incident was “immediate,” and the bureau is
making all of its local and national resources, including its
crimes lab, available to the Virginia State Police.

Ten ATF agents are now on the Virginia Tech campus assisting
with weapons identification. They are collecting shell casings
and running some preliminary tests on scene. Once the
weapon has been identified, they will begin an “urgent trace”
to determine its origins — where it came from, to whom it was
registered, and its history of ownership. All material will be
sent to the ATF’s national crime lab in Maryland.

It appears to me that this terrible case has already been solved and while there are loose ends the Government is just making noise at this point. 

A bad guy took advantage of a situation and shot a bunch of unarmed people and then he died.  Yes, he had a gun, find out where it came from but first decide to let people defend themselves.  The police cannot protect us.

Nuff said.

Author ID: 7907 | 4/16/2007 02:13 PM CST | #87094


It would be interesting to know if the shootings are separate or not. According to the VATech news conference, they have not yet determined if it was one lone gunman, or a multiheaded attack.

Evidently, this played a part in why the campus was not locked down immediately following the first attack.

I have an idea, that much like columbine, the Authorities will keep the real skinny on this masacre secret for a long time.

Anyone know of any local churches that are setting up funds, etc. to help the affected? Surely some of these students will be working parents, part timing a degree. Those families will probably need assistance. I’ll pony up what little I can afford…

Author ID: 9742 | 4/16/2007 02:20 PM CST | #87096


Armed to the Teeth,
Please state a source for your information. According to Packing.org, VA--like most states--prohibits concealed carry on school property, and specifically calls out Commonwealth Universities.

Not saying you’re wrong, but now I’ve got conflicting information I’ll have to sort out, your experience or other knowlege, and the Packing.org folks.

Author ID: 6138 | 4/16/2007 02:22 PM CST | #87097


Just sent this to both of my state reps:

Madam Congresswoman:

I am shocked and saddened by today’s vicious attack upon unarmed students in Virginia.  I am equally dismayed that New Mexico has not yet seen fit to enable its students to lawfully protect themselves by carrying firearms when on university grounds.  My 7-1/2-year tenure in New Mexico institutions of higher learning is nearing a close, as I’m due to graduate this May from UNM with a Masters in Architecture.  I previously attended ENMU Portales where I earned a B.S. in History.  In all that time I have been effectively prohibited from exercising my right to bear arms, a right which the United States Constitution guarantees “shall not be infringed.”

I am a law-abiding citizen and have respected laws prohibiting carry of firearms on campus out of good faith in the State’s ability to protect students through legislation.  Today’s horrific events have proven conclusively that holding to such good faith is imprudent at best and criminally negligent at worst.  I can not and will not entrust my responsibility to protect myself, my family, and my classmates to an incompetent body who refuses to accept responsibility for my safety.  Today at least 32 students are dead, each of whom was gunned down in cold blood without provocation.  Criminal sociopaths choose to commit their killing sprees in areas where they meet the least resistance.  I remain convinced that New Mexico law has turned schools and universities into protected killing zones for madmen.  Legislated victim disarmament is to blame.  The State refuses to guarantee my safety, yet I’m prohibited from protecting myself.  This state of affairs is untenable.

I respectfully but ardently request that you introduce legislation which not only repeals the ban on lawful carry of firearms by qualified persons, including those with CCW permits, but which also prohibits institutions from imposing policies that attempt to undermine the lawful carrying of firearms.  Such laws are necessary to the freedom of citizens who wish to protect themselves from those who would do them harm.  Unless the state is willing to provide individual protection to each student and guarantee his or her personal safety, it remains unconscionable to deny them their right to self-defense.

With all Respect,

Dr. Feelgood

Author ID: 8912 | 4/16/2007 02:30 PM CST | #87098


Achilles said:

I understand all that Sam, however, as Jeff Cooper says in “Principles of Self-Defense”, the first thing is to SURVIVE - anthing that comes after it can be dealt with. This of course presupposes that any consequence of a mortal fight is better than dying. Second, if you are carrying and there are no metal detectors, how does anyone KNOW you are carrying? That is as long as you do it right.

I didn’t say that **I** subscribed to this - I was responding to why people don’t carry regardless of the law.  I think that this incident will definitely make a lot more people carry where it is prohibited (and there are no metal detectors). 

As an aside, we need to know if this guy was a mooslim talabani type. Only then will we know the full story. Don’t be surprised if the “asian american” turns out to be a muslim and the “authorities” try to keep it under wraps.

That will, indeed, be interesting.  He’s been described as an “Asian” on some reports, and “Southern Asian” is a very well-known PC euphamism for “Arab.” Of course, one need not be Arab to be Moslem, nor even Moslem to be a terrorist.  We may also find out that this was just one extremely frustrated and sick individual.  Time will tell.

Rehearse for success the following:

Arm yourself.  Get training.  Practice.  CARRY the thing!  It’s the only way to be sure.

Arm yourself...check.  Get training...check (sort of, mostly informal with friends).  Practice...check (I actually went out yesterday).  Carry the thing!...I usually do, but I’m embarassed to say that my normal weekday carry piece is sitting in a drawer at home.  It’s the only way to be sure...you betcha.

In our lifetimes, we are NEVER going to have a president who will come out and say life comes down to personal responsibilities - arm yourself and take on that task. You just have to do it.

You may be right about our presidents, though Fred Thompson may someday prove you wrong.  But you are surely right that life comes down to personal responsibilities.

You know, this may actually turn out well ***from the perspective of enhancing our ability on a nationwide basis to carry in more places.*** Of course, for the victims and their families this can never turn out well.  But maybe, MAYBE a lot of people will begin to question the whole idea of victim disarmament zones.  If the DUmmies are doing it, maybe there’s hope.

Author ID: 7384 | 4/16/2007 02:30 PM CST | #87099


Carry on campus...that’s a no-brainer. If you herd enough sheep together, a wolf will find them. Having some sheepdogs makes too much sense. At the very least, allow willing faculty/staff to train and arm like airline pilots.

Here’s another suggestion. Train the students to have a different repsonse than cowering. We practice for fire drills, line up, get out. So, let’s practice for a shooter. Cover the window in the door. Biggest, strongest people in room in rows, holding chairs and desks. When the shooter enters the room, throw the desks, chairs, books, tables, bookcases. then rush him. Someone MIGHT get hurt. Sure they might. But the shooter will be going down. Practiced from about Junior High on, along with some basic martial arts, and we could stop seeing healthy young adult men as victims.

Author ID: 1632 | 4/16/2007 02:32 PM CST | #87100


NO ONE else can protect you.  The GFWs and gun grabbers are going to be eating this up.  They STILL don’t get it, Gun-Free Zones are shooting galleries for those who break the law.

These is NO safety in a “Gun-Free Zone”, just a bunch of feel-good words which have no real meaning.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

My condolences to the families and friends of the victims.

Author ID: 2187 | 4/16/2007 02:36 PM CST | #87102


Local news on WLS radio, ABC affiliate in Chicago, the Irish Nazi, King Richard II, was already in “reasonable gun control rant” mode.  Dirty little bastard, dancing on the graves of the victims.

And Achilles, with all do respect, I’m guessing you live in free America.  You cannot imagine what happens breaking gun laws in a restrictive place like Chicago.

Shoot a goblin in a 100% justifiable self-defense situation.  You WILL be charged.  You will lose your job.  Your wife will lose her job.  You will be vilified in the press.  You will lose your home, paying lawyers.  Ditto your life savings.  You’ll probably be convicted, and sentenced to prison.  Goblin (or heirs) will sue you for anything the lawyers didn’t get.  Some might consider death preferable.

Author ID: 132 | 4/16/2007 02:39 PM CST | #87103


Over here in <safe> Blighty HAH! both the BBC and ITV news <SPIT> are reading from the same Gun control Hymn sheet, on Newsnight a news magazine programme on BBC2 you had the presenter saying that the idea of someone actually DEFENDING themselves to be unbelivable. oh how i WISH i could afford to emigrate.

Author ID: 7585 | 4/16/2007 03:06 PM CST | #87105


USMC sayz:
“Here’s another suggestion. Train the students to have a different repsonse than cowering. We practice for fire drills, line up, get out. So, let’s practice for a shooter. Cover the window in the door. Biggest, strongest people in room in rows, holding chairs and desks. When the shooter enters the room, throw the desks, chairs, books, tables, bookcases. then rush him. Someone MIGHT get hurt. Sure they might. But the shooter will be going down. Practiced from about Junior High on, along with some basic martial arts, and we could stop seeing healthy young adult men as victims.”

Doubleplusungood.  Schools must encourage wimp training, as it’s easier to control wimps than fighters.  In addition, it’s much easier to cast blame on both sides in a fight than it is to determine who is right and whom is wrong.  You are encouraging fight training in a place where there must only be wimp training.  You are guilty of thoughtcrime for suggesting schools should train fighters instead of wimps.
In addition, fight training can lead to real self-confidence, instead of the ego-stroking that is proscribed by schools.  It’s better a person think they’re good even when they aren’t, instead of knowing for certain they have the ability to do something and the confidence that comes from knowing you can do it.

Author ID: 1257 | 4/16/2007 03:11 PM CST | #87107


Dirty little bastard, dancing on the graves of the victims.

They’re not dancing on their graves, they’re dancing on their still-warm corpses!  “Dirty little bastards” is letting them off MUCH too easy!!

Author ID: 289 | 4/16/2007 03:11 PM CST | #87108


What I don’t understand is why nobody fought the bastard.  If a group had rushed him, they probably could have taken him down and thrashed him.

I know its easy to sit at my computer and say this without being faced with gunfire.  But if some douche bag is lining people up and shooting them, I’m going try to charge and at least go down fighting.

Author ID: 7956 | 4/16/2007 03:13 PM CST | #87109


Here’s another suggestion. Train the students to have a different repsonse than cowering. We practice for fire drills, line up, get out. So, let’s practice for a shooter. Cover the window in the door. Biggest, strongest people in room in rows, holding chairs and desks. When the shooter enters the room, throw the desks, chairs, books, tables, bookcases. then rush him. Someone MIGHT get hurt. Sure they might. But the shooter will be going down. Practiced from about Junior High on, along with some basic martial arts, and we could stop seeing healthy young adult men as victims.

This is too logical. It will only happen on an individual level.

Author ID: 7393 | 4/16/2007 03:17 PM CST | #87110


I was thinking the same exact thing when I read this.  Unfortunately I don’t see anyone in the media coming out and saying that the whole thing could have been avoided if the students were armed.  In fact, I think that more people are going to be on the news crying for more gun control.  It’s sad really when you see these “educated” people in the media just throwing away their only defense in the world.

As for carrying in the schools, I believe the law is you can’t carry on: Federal owned property, a school campus(federal or private), anyplace you have to pay money to get in, and places that serve alcohol.  I think that is the law in Virginia, since my North Carolina permit is valid there. 

All I can say is, I’m glad I go to a gunsmithing trade school where they allow us to have our concealed carry on us. (the ammo has to be stored in a locker though) Never heard of anyone going on a rampage there, and it’s been around for over 50 years!

-The Muddogg

Author ID: 9852 | 4/16/2007 03:22 PM CST | #87112


ala Todd Beamer!

As Col Cooper was wont to point out, we musn’t go down without a fight. Certainly some may get shot, some may die, but we most certainly could take the bad guy down!

The whole essay is contained in “To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth”.

Author ID: 8424 | 4/16/2007 03:26 PM CST | #87114


Over here in <safe> Blighty HAH! both the BBC and ITV news <SPIT> are reading from the same Gun control Hymn sheet, on Newsnight a news magazine programme on BBC2 you had the presenter saying that the idea of someone actually DEFENDING themselves to be unbelivable. oh how i WISH i could afford to emigrate.

How much does it cost to emigrate?  I’ve been wondering that for a while now.

Author ID: 9852 | 4/16/2007 03:26 PM CST | #87115


Not to be crass, but at least this spree occurred where adults had the option (if not legally or by school policy) to be able carry, and deal with any consequences if caught (or IF NEEDED.) Apparently, nobody did. In the k-12 situations like this, the underage students never have a chance, because adults are too cowardly (i.e., GFWs or afraid of their government) to protect innocent children.
Everyone in this situation was likely past the age of accountability.
It sucks, but armed, responsible citizens could have stopped this- had any been present.

Author ID: 9193 | 4/16/2007 03:27 PM CST | #87116


crap, I screwed up that quote! Sorry!

Author ID: 9852 | 4/16/2007 03:28 PM CST | #87117


Shoot a goblin in a 100% justifiable self-defense situation.  You WILL be charged.  You will lose your job.  Your wife will lose her job.  You will be vilified in the press.  You will lose your home, paying lawyers.  Ditto your life savings.  You’ll probably be convicted, and sentenced to prison.  goblin (or heirs) will sue you for anything the lawyers didn’t get.  Some might consider death preferable.

Yes, death would most likely be preferable, but mine would not be first. Just sayin’.

Author ID: 7393 | 4/16/2007 03:31 PM CST | #87118


My heart and prayers go out to those - and the families of those - killed or wounded today. 

I can’t be the only one who thinks that kids shouldn’t have to carry concealed weapons on them to go to school every day. 

100 years ago - 50 years ago - we had more guns, per capita, than we do now and yet we didn’t have this sort of thing. 

What has happened to America?  Why is it that with every passing year more and more
people seem to feel that being dumped by your girlfriend - or getting fired from your job - demands that a dozen or so random people die?

What is wrong with America?  What is wrong with us?  What the hell is going on?

I greatly fear that this event today may well be our Port Arthur - our Dunblane. 

I believe that we are going to see an avalanche of gun control bills and we are not going to escape unscathed.  My guess is that we are going to see another, possibly permanent, ban on so-called “Assault Rifles”.  If it came down to it, and its back was against the wall, the NRA would gladly accept an AWB to avoid a registry of all handguns sold in future.  Today’s events could shake people up enough to go along with anything called “gun control”

This is a dark, dark day for Liberty.

V

Author ID: 9535 | 4/16/2007 03:39 PM CST | #87120


Armed to the Teeth:

Virginia may be like many other states, in that concealed carry, for example, is legal in most situations in the Commonwealth, but not on most college campuses.  From OneNewsNow, it is clear that even students at VA Tech who possess a Virginia concealed carry permit can be arrested if they bring their firearms onto campus. This makes the whole campus a virtual kill-zone. The shooter, we can be sure, was well aware of this situation. The only real opposition he faced was the campus police. This is pretty much a joke, as he may well have known.

In some jurisdictions (for example, New Mexico), it is illegal for those without a concealed carry license to carry a concealed firearm. However, in New Mexico the offense is [thankfully] only a misdemeanor. Probably an old law which has not been ‘updated’ to modern standards, wherein damn near every offense is a felony.

Author ID: 8956 | 4/16/2007 04:00 PM CST | #87122


I would like to watch actual news about this tragic event however the TV broadcasters just keep on stating that today establishes a new record in number of killed and injured as if it were a sporting event. 

Instead of sticking to the facts or really finding out what happened you can almost see the blood dripping off their lips as they turn this into a media event.  It’s as if the dead are just extras to be used as background for the broadcasters big mouths as they tell us how much anguish they are experiencing.

I did hear one “expert” on suicidal mental people make the statement that the only thing that will stop a person in that state of mind is his death, whether it is in the Middle-East or on a college campus.  That’s kind of obvious isn’t it?

I kind of wish they could go medieval on the dead killer and hang his body up for people to spit on while the birds pick him apart instead of turning him into an Anti-Hero of some sort.

Author ID: 7907 | 4/16/2007 04:33 PM CST | #87124


I fear voolfie is right.

We must begin fighting back NOW.  In the midst of our compassion for the victims and their families we must remind everyone of two things:

(1) Police cannot protect us—shooters make sure there are no uniforms in sight before they begin such a rampage—we must defend ourselves if there is to be any defense at all.

(2) Odds are that at least 250 CW holders were on campus today.  Some few of them must have been present in Norris Hall.  One armed citizen—ONE—could have stopped this.  Just one. 

My wife is a VT Alum, as is my Boy.  As would be predictable, my GFW wife’s first words were “this is what happens when people have guns.” She refuses to see that a good person with a gun could have stopped it.

As to the lack of unarmed resistance, this too will never be taught - not only do they want us to be sheep, they want us to be INDIVIDUAL sheep.  If we’re allowed to turn into a herd, we’d be harder to control.

DD

Author ID: 8950 | 4/16/2007 04:40 PM CST | #87125


Any Pistol Shooters here???
Please help me understand the difficultly of this???

32 killed, a lot less wounded.
Shooter carried two 9MM semi-automatic hand guns.
~80 to 90 shots fired.
Why two handguns??
A 18 shot Glock ~ 5 Mags???
We don’t know what he was carrying, but sounds reasonable. 
We do know he reloaded at one door.
With that kill ratio, I doubt he was shooting with one in each hand???
He had a primary, and secondary weapon. Why???

I would think the only easy shot he took all day was to his face.
Why shoot yourself in the face???. I would think the natural thing would be into the temple area ???
No ID or cell phone on the shooter. HMMMMMW???
No finger prints??? HMMMMMMW??? He taught himself how to shoot like this without, any professional training. 

Is it really that easy to kill 32 people with a 9MM handgun??? I guess yes, if all were head shots, but then I think that would be very, very, difficult to set up. You’d have to lined them up and shot them in the back of the head???
One student the news talked to in the hospital was hit twice, and played dead.
Double tap???

Maybe it’s just me. Also I know we don’t have everything the Law does. But???

To me, this guy sounds like an expert.
Equal to some of our Delta, FBI, and Secret Service shooters.
How do you rate his skills as a Pistol Shooter???

He may turn out too be, just a pissed off Boyfriend, that was an expert in handguns.

But I have a few questions.
Guy22

Author ID: 9542 | 4/16/2007 05:01 PM CST | #87127


The operative principal is be prepared:

1. have a weapon; knife, gun, club, they all work, some better than others in different circumstances.

2. Practice, practice, practice. spend at least one hour a month practicing with your weapon.  two or more hours a week would be better.

3. Carry your weapon.  No matter how good you are with whatever you carry, its useless to you if it is at home and you are miles away.

4. Be ready to use your weapon if need be.  You should decide if you’re willing to use a weapon to hurt or kill someone in order to protect yourself before you pick it up for the first time.  Waiting until somebody is threating you with a gun or a knife is too late.

4. Conceal your weapon.  Make sure the bad guys can’t tell who is carrying and who isn’t. For the purposes of self defense, anyone who would take your weapon from you is a bad guy.  Never forget that a large part of concealed carry is not talking about what you’re carrying or showing it off. 

5. If you find you have to go someplace where carrying a weapon is illegal don’t leave your weapon at home, upgrade your stealth procedures.  See item 3.

6.  Be ready to casually walk away from bleeding corpse.  In today’s legal climate the less you say to the authorities about defending yourself the better, and if they never ask you any questions its easy to say nothing.

otpu

Author ID: 7974 | 4/16/2007 05:09 PM CST | #87129


I can’t help but think…

In that student population there must be a good number of young men who recently served time in Iraq or Afghanistan, doing midnight door knocking duty.  If two or three of them, armed with their own CCWs, had come together early in this tragedy and employed what they practiced in the sandbox it would have all been over in a matter of minutes, save for the MSM blabbering.

Instead we get kids slaughtered like sheep.  Because they were sheep thanks to our government.

Author ID: 593 | 4/16/2007 05:12 PM CST | #87130


I’ll apologize in advance for the long read.
This is a sad day for many families, my heart goes out to all the students, teachers and families.

We here at this site– must be calm and patient –EVERYONE - and this is why--

I have never personally written about this before, but I was a victim of a “shooting-nut”—he shot at me 3 times, the first shot missed me as I turned and ran away from his raised and pointed gun, dodged his attempt by keeping trees between me and his gun, sadly, the trees did not continue in my attempt to escape.  The second shot got me in the upper back and unfortunately knocked me down, but I managed to get up and run again, although I did finally trip and fall. Soon he walked up and stood over me, pointed his gun and I turned away again, this time he shot me in the back of the neck.  I was praying the whole time—and miraculously survived without serious permanent injury.  Without making a horrible story too long and disgusting, I’ll jump to the fact that I was not all that interested in guns for a long time.  It took 15 years, and 9/11 for me to wake up to the fact that “anybody” could be a bad guy any day of the week.

Not long after 9/11 my dear sweet hubby, the son of a police officer (and very well trained), took me to the gun store and range to introduce me to shooting.  It did not take long before I became a pretty good shot.  Of course, now I own and shoot regularly, often with groupings in the center-10.  Hopefully, such a thing will never happen again, but if it were, I am fully capable of defending myself, and would do so without question.

My opinions have changed 180 degrees since then, and now I believe it is my duty to protect my family, or at least help— and that attitude comes from reading this site, Kim and Connie played a big part (readers can not advertise this site too much).  Although, my husband would probably solve any situation in seconds, I would not hesitate to protect my family.  Don’t give up on people because they are afraid today, or call them names, or assume they are a lost cause because time heals all wounds.  Lessons were well-learned and my adult children are also trained to protect themselves and so are their close friends, and I am always encouraging and inviting my own friends to learn to shoot because it is their duty as well as a fun sport.

This should be the day to start and not stop sending letters to our elected officials asking them to study all the “evidence” before “reacting” to unnecessary laws.  Sites like this make a difference.

Author ID: 7903 | 4/16/2007 05:15 PM CST | #87131


Sean, the problem with your idea of students carrying while living on campus doesn’t work.  The odds of getting caught and ruining the rest of your life are orders of magnitude greater than the odds of needing it.  When you are living in dorms you are living in the same room with people that in all likelyhood you don’t really know, and sharing a bathroom with even more people.  It isn’t really practical to even hide a pistol from your roommates and carry the thing.  College dorms are probably the most efficient victim disarmament zone that doesn’t have metal detectors.

Author ID: 7518 | 4/16/2007 05:41 PM CST | #87133


As I stood in line late this morning at the post office to mail my tax returns, I overheard several conversations concerning the VT tragedy.

These were “average” people who don’t own guns or think much about them.  A couple of them said they knew hunters.  To a person, every one of them expressed both the belief that guns were the problem and a desire to do “something” about them.

My friends, we are in real trouble. 

Please understand that if you attempt to tell one of the people like those I overheard this morning that if someone had been armed this could have been avoided, they will write you off as an idiot or a lunatic like the one who committed this atrocity. 

We are not going to win this argument.  Not now.  Not with these people.  And “these people” outnumber us 30-to-1.

Like Dedicated_Dad says, we better start getting on the horn to our representatives NOW.

Author ID: 9535 | 4/16/2007 05:46 PM CST | #87134


AuntieG,

Thanks for sharing.

For those who don’t know, VT is one of the only (2) remaining active “Land Grant” universities with an active Corps program—the other is Texas A&M;.  These kids (my Boy was one) are in uniform every day, just like a Service Academy, and generally actually qualify higher and do better than the S.A. kids (according to info we were given @ VT and my own anecdotals from several star-wearing officers).

I’ve been praying this wasn’t a “corps kid.”

Just like Columbine, headshots are easy when your victims are cowering on the floor.  This animal apparently chained the doors to maximize the target-richness of his environment.

I’m honestly suspecting a screwed-up wannabe Jihadi.  I’m also suspecting the (2) shooting events were unrelated—that the first made ‘lil J. decide “this is the day” to do his deed.

G*d bless the families, and help the rest of us.

This is indeed a dark day.

DD

Author ID: 8950 | 4/16/2007 05:46 PM CST | #87135


I talked with a couple of ladies at work about the situation and was saddened, but not shocked at their responses.

They BOTH said they would never charge a shooter to try to stop the killing because they prefer to “see if they can get off without getting hurt.” I asked one of them what she would do if the shooter was lining them up against the wall, and she replied, “Nothing because you ususally don’t get shot.”

The other told me that I was a racist for asking if the shooter was muslim....

...I just heard part of America swishing down the toliet bowl....disgusting.

Author ID: 7763 | 4/16/2007 06:04 PM CST | #87136


The most current info is that the perp is a Chinese national....which raises several interesting questions.

Like how he got a firearm.  Because I don’t think he brought it with him from China.

This is going to get interesting.  We definitely need to be on our guard.

Virginia Polytechnic Institute (Aerospace & Ocean Engineering ‘85)

Author ID: 200 | 4/16/2007 06:05 PM CST | #87137


Voolfie,

Your experience was 180 degrees out from mine today.  All of the women where I work were howling for Hincker’s blood after reading his comment.  (The only holdout, our “token liberal,” has finally decided she wants to go to the range now.)

Every patient with whom I spoke about this tragedy was appalled at the fact that students weren’t allowed the chance to defend themselves. 

Horrible things like this can drop down either way governmentally:  Either with more restrictions and victim disarmament (as with Stockton and the Cali AW ban) or with people being given a fighting chance (as with Luby’s and Texas concealed carry.)

This is bad, beyond words.  But if we work hard at it, something good may yet come of it.

Author ID: 161 | 4/16/2007 06:25 PM CST | #87138


And once again, cops have shown the usual cowardice in such situations - just like Columbine. If people being shot execution style is not enough for police to “go in” then why do we even have police? The only real function of police in a democracy is to deal with stuff like that. If the police cannot deal with things like that because they fear casualties, then why do we have them?

Author ID: 7763 | 4/16/2007 06:27 PM CST | #87139


I see Voolfie as a plant. A “feelgood” take the pressure off the shooter and blame the gun sort. Right after I got done with its post, I came to make this comment. Damnit people, IT WAS A TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENT FOR THE TOON. This must not go unpunished among those who cost those students their lives. It is the Brady Bunch, the sheeple producers who are at fault!

Author ID: 6430 | 4/16/2007 06:31 PM CST | #87140


Frankly, in a “target-rich environment”, I don’t think it would take the level of skill that was attributed to the shooter above. Despite what may get thrown about on the gunboards, the 9mm is going to do serious damage, and if an organ area is hit it will likely be fatal. These weren’t people wearing armor, they weren’t hopped up on PCP or some other drug that makes the user “invincible” unless there’s a .45 hole in their chest. If the 9 wasn’t lethal, it wouldn’t be the weapon of choice (not would it ever have been) for many police departments or military organizations around the world.

I’m not a pistol expert, but this evening I managed to put 150 rounds into an NRA B8 target at 25 yds. That target is equivalent to the “breadbasket” of a moderate-sized human being. I’m not convinced he needed the skill of Delta, the SEALs, or others mentioned above.

And while I understand the continuing animosity toward Jihadis, let’s wait until there’s some information before we jump to those conclusions, K? There have been killings around the country for many years, only recently have there been “Jihadi killings”.

Author ID: 6138 | 4/16/2007 06:33 PM CST | #87141


Did anyone else see (and hear) the student’s cell phone video footage? To me it sounded like 3 groups of 9 shots each, more or less, and not all rapid fire. I think that’s telling though it may not mean anything in terms of what he was carrying (at this point it’s said to be a 9mm and a .22). Still, there’s going to be a lot of talk about high capacity magazines - it’s already started. For anyone with shooting experience it’s plain to hear ample time between shots or groups of shots to reload a magazine or three - regardless of whether he had 16 rounds +1 or less. He had the time to shoot selectively, pause, reload if necessary, shoot again, pause, etc. regardless of capacity. I know this sort of observation may sound cold or clinical under the circumstances. I have (younger) children. I feel for these kids and their families. How could one not? It’s a terrible day. And of course I agree that one other person carrying might have put an end to the whole thing real quick. But the fact is the media hoopla has started, decency will be abandoned and this to me is a critical aspect that needs to be pointed out as the gun-grabbing types are sure to be given ample air-time to ignore the facts and say what they please.

Author ID: 7943 | 4/16/2007 06:42 PM CST | #87145


A “feelgood” take the pressure off the shooter and blame the gun sort.

cmblake, I’d prefer my good name not be associated with gun-control apologists, thanks

That’s the only levity I’ll inject into this topic.  My heart is literally breaking over this horrific attack.  I’ve already written my state legislators to try and prevent the same circumstances from occuring here.  I simply cannot arrive at a good solution for self-defense in dorm facilities.  As an undergrad I was an RA when it was discovered that one of my drug-dealing residents was keeping a 9mm auto in his room.  He, thankfully, was removed from school and I never saw him again, but it got me thinking about whether I should be armed in defiance of school policy (and I wouldn’t have been caught, since I was the “catcher” of rule-breakers).  I let it go and didn’t have another incident.

Author ID: 8912 | 4/16/2007 06:47 PM CST | #87146


Offtopic:

Kim, Massbackwards has a story about a goblin who decided to start trouble in the wrong state. It’s worth checking out.

Author ID: 319 | 4/16/2007 06:51 PM CST | #87147


The president of a state university in Colorado immediately responded with this . . . comforting . . . email message to the campus community:

“ The presence of a sub-station of the [redacted] County Sheriff’s Office on campus provides a substantial advantage in our response to such scenarios as we have nearly immediate access to EMS and SWAT services and far fewer jurisdictional hoops to jump through than many universities. According to Sgt. [redactd], our Emergency Operating Center is tried, true, and tested.  [redacted] does ask your help in making this campus a safer place. Should faculty members or students observe suspicious or threatening behavior or should they receive what they perceive to be threatening e-mails, phone calls, or verbal assaults, they should immediately notify the [redacted] Sheriff’s Office, ext. 2373. Once the Office is made aware of such threats, they can take preventative steps to curtail aggressive behavior and prevent the escalation of events such as we’ve witnessed on the news today.”

The sheriff’s substation is on the far side of campus from my building. And studens (but not staff . . . yet) are still not permitted to carry on campus.

Author ID: 7602 | 4/16/2007 06:52 PM CST | #87148


“And once again, cops have shown the usual cowardice in such situations - just like Columbine. If people being shot execution style is not enough for police to “go in” then why do we even have police? The only real function of police in a democracy is to deal with stuff like thatThe only real function of police in a democracy is to deal with stuff like that. If the police cannot deal with things like that because they fear casualties, then why do we have them? “

Achilles on 04/16 at 08:27 PM

OMG!!!
“And once again, cops have shown the usual cowardice in such situations - just like Columbine”
I bet a lot more cops thought this: “A good day to die”; than you did. That is the warrior way.

If people being shot execution style???
Do you know that for a fact??? The (IF) says not???

“Why do we even have police?”
What are suggesting??? Have the sanitation/water works guys handle it???

“The only real function of police in a democracy is to deal with stuff like this.”

This is so - so -so. I will not even comment???

“If the police cannot deal with things like that because they fear casualties, then why do we have them? “

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the LORD Forever (NKJV).

Because Police understand evil, and are ready to combat it, or participate in it, but never able too live with it???

Guy22

Author ID: 9542 | 4/16/2007 07:38 PM CST | #87151


Achilles,

There is cell phone footage on youtube, and statements from university faculty that the SWAT team was heading into the fire, they just didn’t get there quick enough.

I would never ask a policeman, who is not wearing adequate protection and carrying adequate weaponry to head into a firefight. While there are many who would head in, guns blazing --- there is a balance point where dying does absolutely no good. For example, without knowing the situation, the shooter could have killed a unprepared cop, become unraged, and killed even more people. In this situation, in hind sight, this probably wouldn’t have happened. But hindsight is 20/20 in most cases (unless you get politicians involved). When your goal is to protect and serve, the situational dynamics are quite a bit different from taking a house full of terrorist scum.

It sounds like from the reports that the guy was a total coward, like most of these nuts. Firstly, he preys on a population almost guaranteed not to be able to shoot back, and secondly, he kills himself just before the cops are in reach of him, and denies them the ability wound and take him in.

Right now, I refer to him as a cowardous nut, but I think he was worse, but only tyears of investigation & mountains of reports will tell the real story. It is remotely possible, he was just a complete loon, that should have been in the mental health care system long ago. Our society has a bad habit of dropping mental health programs nowadays in favor free stuff programs for the “poor & needy”.

I also agree with Kim --- students should be able to carry if they want. These students should be qualified by law, like anyone else allowed to carry. I know that if I were a student, I would be looking for a private engineering school, which allows weapons on campus, and if none existed, certainly a following could be established after today, that perhaps could bring about such a school. Not all college students are brain washed liberals, wanting a totally free society with the exclusion of any risk to themselves. Some are willing to defend themselves and their classmates.

I will also bet that the VA legislature bill 1572 will come up a little more than the talking head media will be comfortable with over the next few years. Whether there will be enough momentum for that to change, I can’t say, but it will be talked about. And probably somewhere like Florida and/or Texas will actually pass such a resolution.

Author ID: 9742 | 4/16/2007 08:01 PM CST | #87153


This has hit my family… Hard.

Wife and Boy are Alumni, and we now believe friends are among the casualties.

Kim’s title:  “Much Safer”

The quote:  “...this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.”

Feel.

FEEL.

FEEL.

This seems to be what it is all about any more—the reason for everything that gets done—how it makes the most unTHINKing of us… FEEL.

Wonder who FEELS safe tonight?

We need to start calling everyone around us on this every time we hear it.

“This will make people feel safer.”

“Maybe, but it looks to me like it is going to make them be more UN-safe.

For me, it starts here, and now.  Damn all else, I will challenge the “feel-good” evil whenever it rears its ugly head.

“Feel-good” is not enough.  It must BE GOOD.

DD

Author ID: 8950 | 4/16/2007 08:08 PM CST | #87154


The infamous youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg

Author ID: 6201 | 4/16/2007 08:13 PM CST | #87155


Achilles,
Was smoking a cigar with a local deputy just yesterday and in our area they now train to go into the school or area instead of waiting like Columbine. Small comfort since all schools in Tampa are gun-free.
After arguing with my GFW wife about guns and the gun-free “feel safe” zone I’ve printed out two articles off Michelle Malkin’s site about the 2002 Appalcachian Law School shooting stopped by two armed students and the article about the Virginia Tech spokesman being pleased the concealed weapon bill being defeated last year. Before I go to bed I’m going over to Midway and order some more ammo before it gets banned. A buddy has been buying extra since the Dems took over Congress and now it seems it will get more expensive and scarcer.
RIP

Author ID: 7539 | 4/16/2007 08:43 PM CST | #87157


Stirred up some controversy did we? Goddamnit you pussilanimous weenies, FUCKING ACT!!!!!!! Get the libs out of control of our lives! Preserve our children by teaching them self defense, not cower and hope! Vote! And if that fails, revolt. What was that about soap box, ballot box, cartridge box? Get them out of power. If we can vote them out, so much the better. If not, so be it.

Author ID: 6430 | 4/16/2007 08:50 PM CST | #87158


11:20 pm, CST

And right on schedule, Jake Tappa of ABC News is going ORGASMIC on their anti-gun screed, right after the main, late-nite news.

Please forgive my outburst.

MUTHERFUCKING PUSSIFIED ANTIGUNTARDS!

I’m far beyond RCOB anger.

I am ice cold, and am waiting for the filthy SOBs to try ...........

...........never mind.  Better I hold my tounge, and keyboard.

Molon Labe, sonsabitches.

Jim
Sloop New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Author ID: 2853 | 4/16/2007 09:23 PM CST | #87159


They won’t take guns we already have. That would be ridiculous. However, a nice slow illegalization of all firearms, and in a hundred years, no one has them.

However, the return of the AWB is certainly possible.

People need to write letters NOW. Letters to their representatives, not sounding like the next campus shooters, but citizens concerned about their rights to keep and bear arms. Citizens who respect their leaders (even if they didn’t necessarily vote for them).

With a concerted effort, the MSM’s new offensive (the previous was the election of a democrat majority) can be turned on them.

Virginia House Bill 1572 needs to be brought up as often as possible. Statistics about AWB failure, Florida’s success with CCW and castle doctrine laws, all these need to be brought up and repeatedly. We have to quit being the silent majority.

Well, its a nice dream anyway

David

Author ID: 9742 | 4/16/2007 09:36 PM CST | #87162


Some years ago (IIRC, 1990) something similar happened on the campus of the University of Iowa.  A Chinese student named Lu Gang, who was angry because a prestigous award had gone to another Chinese student rather than him, shot a bunch of people, including the person who’d won the award. 

This struck close to home for me, since my best-beloved had gone to U of Iowa until the year before, and we’d often been in the buildings this nutcase did his shooting in.  “There, but for the grace of the gods, go we...” as I commented to her while discussing the news. 

The gods be thanked, Iowa’s a fairly level-headed sort of place, and we didn’t have a huge rush to ban anything that would shoot.  I think that some local gun store had to close down, but I could be wrong; it’s been many years since I thought about this.

Author ID: 7388 | 4/16/2007 09:50 PM CST | #87163


Voolfie is right on the money.

People in general are so scared sh$tless of regular citizens getting permits to carry weapons it is unbeliveable. They are also so totally ignorant of gun laws and how guns function in general, it is sickening.

The idea of regular citizens using weapons to protect themselves is so foreign to most people that you can’t even reason with them when the idea is even proposed...and guess what?

They all vote.

Start writing letters folks to the lawmakers, or the firearm freedoms that have come so slowly since the 1990’s are going to get erased in a few months!

People trust the govt more than their own neighbors these days, no doubt due to the public school brainwashing that has been going on for so long.

I am going to keep the victims in my prayers.

Just a shame that the coward that did this appears to have taken his own life so he will never be punished for his crimes.

Author ID: 8363 | 4/16/2007 09:56 PM CST | #87164


Whatever happened to the day when there were 4H clubs? Firearms familiarisation and safety training in school? Exposure to the fact that it’s a screwdriver or a hammer, nothing more. Not an A.I. unit that posesses people. Just a device that utilises a high pressure burning substance to expel a projectile to whatever purpose the manipulator has in mind.

Author ID: 6430 | 4/16/2007 10:09 PM CST | #87165


For good, for evil, the hand.

Author ID: 6430 | 4/16/2007 10:11 PM CST | #87166


---But the fact is the media hoopla has started---

That word is spelled:  hoplophobia

Guy22, at close range, with no training and minimal effort, it is entirely possible to achieve a high kill ratio on motionless humans who have, apparently, no desire to live.  As with a machine gun, you shoot until you take out the target, adjusting fire as necessary.

Author ID: 9884 | 4/16/2007 10:56 PM CST | #87167


To believe weapons are the problem, you’d have to believe an armed student would have jumped into action and joined in the shooting of other students. Put another way, think of all the deaths prevented by all the unarmed students not springing into action, helping out with the killing.

Author ID: 7975 | 4/17/2007 03:11 AM CST | #87169


LawDog sums up the situation with words I only wish I’d written:

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2007/04/virginia-tech-shooting.html

Author ID: 803 | 4/17/2007 05:03 AM CST | #87171


Shit like this is precisely why I carry on campus.

Author ID: 6793 | 4/17/2007 06:32 AM CST | #87176


Special Ed,

hoopla
n : blatant or sensational promotion [syn: ballyhoo, hype, plug]

But hoplophobia is usually appropriate too though Brit Hume (spelling?) totally shut down a commenter as did Sean Hannity with a different “expert” commenter when they wanted to focus on guns as the problem.

Author ID: 7943 | 4/17/2007 06:35 AM CST | #87177


I thought SWAT tactics had been revised after Columbine so that if there is reason to believe a gunman is shooting people the cops will immediately enter the building and take him out. The video of the cops hiding behind their squad cars with bulletproof vests and M-16’s while the gunshots ring out at a regular pace as students are executed is maddening.

Author ID: 7827 | 4/17/2007 06:52 AM CST | #87178


Just 24 hours later and the gun control alarms are sounding.  I was in Bristol, England in 1985 when a lone gunman had shot someone in London.  150 miles away I watched an entire country lock itself down.  I watched grown men and women cower around the “tele” waiting to hear when it would be safe to venture out again.  I was 18 at the time and was amazed by what i saw.  An entire country frozen by fear because they couldn’t defend themselves.  I will not allow that to happen here in the U.S..  It can not be allowed!!!!

Author ID: 9835 | 4/17/2007 07:08 AM CST | #87181


I would never ask a policeman, who is not wearing adequate protection and carrying adequate weaponry to head into a firefight. While there are many who would head in, guns blazing --- there is a balance point where dying does absolutely no good. For example, without knowing the situation, the shooter could have killed a unprepared cop

If it is required that all people must give up their ability to defend themselves and relegate such duty to the police, then it would be wholly inappropriate to anything other than demand that the police do exactly that.  We are being ordered to surrender all capacity for defense to the police, yet no requirement is being made that the police provide such defense.

This is a second pressure point we should begin to explore and exploit.  Make it known that the consequence of “Police defense” is that police must put themselves in harms way to bodily defend those they prohibit from self-defense.

In this sad case, should one of the victims have a gun license (CCW or otherwise) their relatives should find a way to file suit against the school, the police, and the legislature (others should do so also, but the rpesence of a license and the implied training would strengthen the case).  While the police were not responsible for the laws and rules prohibiting the students from having the ability to defend themselves, those laws delegated responsibility for that defense to them, and they failed to perform.  That there is no way for them to perform is ultimately not our problem - they can make the choice for themselves of either: asking for the budgetary increases necessary to perform their assigned duties; accept blame and liability for failure to perform those duties (at some point their legal immunity should be removable once there is enough evidence they are not even making a credible attempt); or support the return of self defense and a reduction in gun restrictions - removing those duties and liabilities from themselves.

Author ID: 7959 | 4/17/2007 07:16 AM CST | #87185


To me, and I know the camera angle means a lot, but footage seemed to show lots of cops standing around and taking cover while the gunman executed people. Sounds maddeningly like Columbine. How many cops were there? Against how many shooters? What are SWAT teams for? We sure spend a lot of money on them, buying them the latest and greatest toys. Busting down doors during drug raids? Intimidating locals? How many cops are going to get killed if 50 of them storm a building with two gunmen? Hell, the campus police force, employed in a decisive and forceful manner could have stopped ANY of the mass killings at schools in the last 30 years. When it comes down to it, I could have taken some shooters from the range and we could have done it. Yes, there is a possiblity of shooting a bystander. But they were being executed anyways. Anyone heard of bounding overwatch? Suppressive fire? Sure hostages may have been hit but SOME would have survived.

Nowdays, police tactics are centered around the most risk averse polices possible. Diversity training, political correctness, and feel good policies dominate police departments. I have seen it in my AO - inept management at the top and low quality at the bottom (terrible salaries) have contributed to a high percentage of unsolved killings and several serial killers in BR.  At Columbine, law enforcement showed undeniable cowardice. We haven’t seen all the angles on the Tech Incident yet, but I fear that we are going to see the same thing.

Now I am not saying that police need to take unnecessary risks. That is an anathema. But what they do need to do is take the fight to the bad guys when it is necessary. I have to repeat, there is nothing wrong with police taking casualties when a massacre is ongoing. Just how many could this guy have shot if they rushed him? I would venture to say FEW to NONE of them. If cops aren’t going to go in, then we don’t need them. Motivated “civilians” could do the same job.

The sad reality is that, IMHO, most Americans, and perhaps most human beings in general, want to delegate their personal safety to others. So we get what we get.

We are not a nation of riflemen - not now.

We are a nation of pussies.

Author ID: 7763 | 4/17/2007 07:59 AM CST | #87192


Michelle Malkin (http://michellemalkin.com/index.htm)
Has a letter posted on her site that was emailed by a student who was in one of the classrooms during the attack.  I have copied his last paragraph.

Also, let me say that the response from the campus, local, and state police was exemplary. Within five minutes of the first shots, police were gathering outside. In another ten minutes, the threat had been neutralized and the building was secure. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to the brave men and women who kept us safe today.

--Jacob Simmons
junior, Computer Engineering, Virginia Tech

I think there are a lot of details that will come out in the next few days as the dust settles.

Author ID: 7907 | 4/17/2007 08:45 AM CST | #87200


Within five minutes of the first shots, police were gathering outside. In another ten minutes, the threat had been neutralized and the building was secure.

The threat was neutralized when the murderer killed himself.  The police themselves stated that when they got to the classroom the shooting had stopped for this reason.  Based on this description, he had 15 minutes in which to murder more student while the police were gathering. 

I’m not going to second guess the police because I wasn’t there, I don’t know all of the facts and I’m not a police officer or a person with other law enforcement training...but that being said, it doesn’t exactly seem to me like the police were instrumental in doing anything but hauling away wounded and dead, drawing chalk outlines, gathering physical evidence and talking with witnesses.  That’s what USUALLY happens, because the police cannot be everywhere...which is why we as a society shouldn’t be creating and maintaining victim-disarmament zones.

Author ID: 7384 | 4/17/2007 09:11 AM CST | #87204