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Wednesday, February 13, 2008


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Why Bother

February 13, 2008
5:22 AM CST

The non-lawyer half of the InstaCouple says this:

“Nowadays, for many men, the negatives of marriage for men often outweigh the positives. Therefore, they engage in it less often. Not because they are bad, not because they are perpetual adolescents, but because they have weighed the pros and cons of marriage in a rational manner and found the institution to be lacking for them.”

I think women don’t understand how clinical men can be when it comes to analyzing a relationship. (Note: just because we don’t talk about our relationship with you, doesn’t mean we don’t analyze it.)

Here’s how I explain it. I think that men keep a running ledger going in their subconscious—all the good/great things about their relationship on the one side, and all the bad/terrible things on the other. At some point or another, if the perceived negatives outweigh the positives, the man will quit the relationship—I mean, just bail out of the whole thing—and usually with a swiftness and finality which confounds women.

Because we’re guys, we don’t talk about this much—even, or especially with other men, and hardly ever with women. But it’s a plain fact.

Now, because we’re guys, certain things have a disproportionate effect on both the good and bad things: on the good side, sex, food and shared interests being probably the best examples; on the bad, infidelity, constant nagging and invasion of privacy constitute the negative. The degree of each, good or bad, will vary among individual men, of course. Some men will put up with almost anything if the sex is of the “bed on fire” variety, for instance, while others will walk out of a relationship for something as trifling as compulsory weekly visits to Mom (hers).

Frankly, it doesn’t matter what these things are. What’s important is that they are each weighed, and applied to the ledger. And when the negatives consistently outweigh the positives, the man will say (to himself), “You know what? This isn’t worth the hassle. The hell with it.”

And once that decision is made, the relationship is over. Now, it may take a long time for all that to happen. Men are not accounting machines, and this is not a daily, or even a regular process. But it takes place in every man, sooner or later, when the negatives get too much to live with.

What’s interesting about all this is that as men grow older, the process becomes a lot quicker—mostly, it should be said, because younger men can put up with almost anything if they’re getting laid. As men get older and sex becomes less important, however, the “bullshit” factor and the tolerance thereof become more important.

I am not interested, incidentally, in hearing the female side of this. The topic is “why men are putting off getting married”. Here’s why.

All the great advantages of the women’s liberation movement have created an environment which, frankly, does not leave men with much. We can’t flirt with women at school, college or at the office anymore, because one man’s “flirting” has become another woman’s “sexual harassment” and the punishments for such transgressions are not only severe, they’re permanent—crippling a man’s career and prospects thereof.

When a woman can get pregnant outside wedlock, and still hound a man forever for child support (with the enthusiastic support of the State), is it any wonder that men, even though ruled by their sex drive, might actually step back a little and think with their heads? And once married, if a divorce becomes a later reality, he stands a real risk of losing access to his kids forever, because if Milady is feeling vengeful—and most do, in a divorce—the merest suggestion of “endangerment” or “violence”, and he is completely screwed, forever, even if the allegation is a complete falsehood.

I am not denying, by the way, that men have brought a lot of this on themselves. But remember, men are more clinical about relationships than women are. It is an absolutely certainty that men read all the news about some guy losing his right to own a gun just because a spiteful ex-wife filed a nonsensical claim of “abuse”, or guys getting ruined because of an intemperate offhand comment at the office, or even, good grief, getting hit up for child support after having been an anonymous sperm donor—and ask: ”Looks like the rules are all in her favor. Remind me: what’s in this ‘marriage’ thing for me , again?

And the fact that women have become more sexually liberated doesn’t help matters. The old saw is true: why would a man go to the trouble of buying, stabling and feeding a cow, when milk’s available at the supermarket?

Remember: the early post-adolescent years are the time in men’s lives when they are most ruled by their sex drive. If the drive can be constantly sated by willing women, can anyone be surprised that when the sex drive starts to fade in importance, men look at all the other parts of a relationship, and find that the game just isn’t worth the hassle?

At ages 19 to about 27, men are at their most vulnerable for marriage, because the nice thing about married sex is not that it’s necessarily great, but that it’s pretty much always available, without too much work involved.

But if during those early years women don’t get their hooks into a man soon enough, the job becomes progressively harder as the man ages. So if women spend those early adult years building themselves a career and “fulfilling themselves” at the expense of getting married, they will find that when they do finally want to settle down and get married, men are no longer as welcoming as they were before.

And the foundations of all that were put down when women tried to stop men from being like men. Even with sex involved, men will always apply “The Ledger” to a relationship. Without sex, men are, quite simply, unwilling to put up with all the shit that a woman brings to the party. And when men feel that the dice are constantly loaded against them, they’ll simply refuse to play the game, at all.

None of this, incidentally, applies to the lucky men and women who found their soulmates—but I have to tell you, life isn’t much like the deliriously-happy couples on eHarmony.com. For every blissful couple in the ads, there are literally millions for whom a relationship is not a joy, but a wearisome chore.

What feminism hath wrought is simple: if men are to treat women as equals, then they will treat them like men—or at best, they will not treat them like women.

One more time: I’m not interested in hearing The Other Side Of The Story from women. We’ve heard little else for the past thirty years. The question was: why are men getting married later, if at all?

This post is the answer, and women should not be shocked by its conclusions.

The saddest part of this is that all things being equal, most men actually enjoy being married, and look forward to it. It’s nice to have someone to come home to, someone with whom you can just be yourself, and someone to share the wonderful joys of having kids. And don’t kid yourselves, the sex is great. A buddy of mine, married to his childhood sweetheart for over twenty years, put it to me this way: “A lot of the time, the sex [between longtime marrieds] is fine, or just so-so. But every once in a while, it’s fantastic, tremendous, brilliant, and better than you could ever ever get from a stranger.”

The men who are resisting being married are cutting themselves off from all this—and women should ask themselves why this is the case, without resorting to the “men are just refusing to grow up” bullshit. They’re not refusing to grow up: this is the reaction to the constant belittlement and the infantilizing treatment they’ve been exposed to all their lives.




Comments

Bottom of Comments | Original Post

  1. A subtle hint for women complaining about this and similar articles:
    Wag more
    Bark less

    You’ll find it works wonders

    Author ID: 7404 | 2/13/2008 05:28 AM CST | #112853
  2. Men will always get the short end of the stick in the double standard world of “equal rights”.

    Author ID: 104 | 2/13/2008 05:32 AM CST | #112854
  3. “A lot of the time, the sex [between longtime marrieds] is fine, or just so-so. But every once in a while, it’s fantastic, tremendous, brilliant, and better than you could ever ever get from a stranger.”

    This doesn’t even BEGIN to paint the picture. Sometimes- frankly, more than enough of the time, it’s nearly fatally incredible.

    A great post. And one that is gonna tip the scales with the Pussification essay, I bet.

    Author ID: 112 | 2/13/2008 05:35 AM CST | #112855
  4. Kim,

    You and I got LUCKY - we found women who both respect OUR brains, whether the bodies deserve respect any longer or not! They also seem to enjoy the same activities, by and large, as we do - shooting, old movies, history, and old novels, on your side, and all those, plus sci-fi and model railroading over here. And, Sandy’s a data wonky nerd like I am, too.

    Unfortunately, we seem to be in a VERY SMALL MINORITY. Most guys our ages (I’m 56), in second-or-later marriages (it took me THREE TRIES to get it right!), don’t find rare gifts like this!

    I guess our shortcomings in other departments (overweight, less-than-independently-wealthy, not exactly Cary Grant-like looks) are made up for in just plain good luck. Lord knows, I suck at gambling! How are YOU at poker?

    Author ID: 8889 | 2/13/2008 06:08 AM CST | #112860
  5. Right on target, as usual. These are the reasons I luckily avoided marrying what would have been my first two ex-wives. Unfortunately, for someone who wanted to get married like myself, the pickings get mighty slim after 30. A buddy used to joke that all women over thirty come pre-pissed. I finally found the perfect women for me when I was nearly forty. Ten years later, life is great.

    Author ID: 9257 | 2/13/2008 06:12 AM CST | #112861
  6. I sure wish I could find something about which to disagree. But I can’t.

    All I’ll add, for the sake of the NoR who are still happy, er, single, if the right girl comes along, run, don’t walk, in the other direction.

    It’s just not worth it. Trust me on this one…

    Well, except the kids. There *is* something to be said for that…

    Author ID: 19 | 2/13/2008 06:17 AM CST | #112864
  7. HUZZAH!

    Would that I had something intelligent to add.  But no.  Being a single man in his late 30s who’s specialized in being someone worth being (and therefore hopefully one worth being with) I can absolutely validate every word of this (with the unfortunate exception of the bits about actually being married, of course.)

    And while optimism is in short supply I’m out there, still looking, fool that I am.

    Author ID: 7799 | 2/13/2008 06:27 AM CST | #112868
  8. “bed on fire”

    please where can I get that before it’s too late???

    Author ID: 10545 | 2/13/2008 06:30 AM CST | #112870
  9. Can’t argue the premise, Kim. I’ll offer a piece of advice from my dad that has served me well:

    “You have to like married life, and you have to like—not just love, but like—your wife.”

    A lot of the “ledger” Kim describes is subsumed in that.

    Author ID: 1448 | 2/13/2008 06:31 AM CST | #112873
  10. Robert in England

    Succinctly put, sir, succinctly put!  We are kindred spirits. 

    On the serious side, I lost my wife some time ago, but I still have the best part of married life - my four children are a constant wonder to me. They’re all adults now,but when I talk with them I picture their pink-faced innocence as toddlers soaking up life like a dry sponge. For you men who are afraid of marriage, or at least wary, children make your life!  From the moment I held my first-born in my arms, I knew my orbit had changed permanently.  Joyous.  Try it.

    Author ID: 10450 | 2/13/2008 06:33 AM CST | #112876
  11. Aye I’m happy to Robert.  Just not happy enough to compromise on some basics.

    Author ID: 7799 | 2/13/2008 06:37 AM CST | #112877
  12. Sigh, during the dark ages the early Church really had to work at getting the concept of marriage across to the newly converted barbarians.  It was a problem because there were just too many bastards running around with insufficent financial and emotional support, especially those of the tribal leaders.  So they put a lot of ceremony, God Wants It, and legal requirements into the concept of marriage for economic reasons as much as anything else. 

    And now in this modern liberated age we don’t have to worry about that any more.  The government will take care of the bastards if any.  oh oh

    Author ID: 67 | 2/13/2008 06:41 AM CST | #112882
  13. Two sorts of women can be readily trusted, one at each end of the age scale.

    When young, a man can open up, reasonably confidently, to a tomboy or better still, a semi-retired tomboy (I hope it is the same term on both sides of the Pond). She has had, probably still has, her horses and her other physical pursuits - one hopes including shooting - and along the way has collected a bruise or two and maybe even a break.

    This lass appreciates manliness, because she has been there but now she wants to be a woman, and particularly relishes being a lady. She can be hard to live up to, but is usually well worth the effort.

    In my 50s now, I discover the retired feminist, especially the type who bought into the myth that a man should be a wimp, an almost-woman, that the sexes are barely distinguishable and men should be feminised.

    It is astonishing how many men bought into this, and how destructive they are to women. Then, with middle age looming. the women realise at last that a man who is like your worst “girlfriend” is a complete waste of oxygen. Finally - if they can find one: at my age there are more good women on the loose than good men - they discover with relief the pleasures of a masculine, protective man who will worship them for their femininity, and who they can appreciate for his manliness. A little late, but better late than never: a lot of us Boomers will go to our graves having never cracked this fundamental secret.

    Author ID: 10497 | 2/13/2008 06:43 AM CST | #112884
  14. I was surprised to learn that fully 2/3rds of divorces are initiated by women.  big surprise  Thanks to no-fault divorce laws, men are essentially handing their balls to women to crush any time they want, and all too often, the woman does so. That certainly doesn’t add to a man’s willingness to marry.

    Here is a reference to that little fact, plus more interesting facts about divorce from Discovery Health.

    Author ID: 7909 | 2/13/2008 06:54 AM CST | #112885
  15. I think that’s all absolutely true, and demonstrates the problem with making all of your life decisions solely on the basis of personal benefit or detriment. We all know that marriage is a social construct. It certainly has personal benefits for both parties--but its larger function is social. It’s about promoting stability, raising children, and so forth. Men married to get laid, certainly, when that was the only (socially acceptable) way they could do so--but they also got married because that’s what men did at a certain point. All of them. It was a rite of passage, and it wasn’t a question of what any particular individual wanted to do with his life.

    There are good things to be said for being able to break free of that stranglehold, and pursue your happiness on a personal and idiosyncratic level. But there’s a downside as well.

    There was a good article on this in City Journal recently. And I blogged in response to it just a few days ago: Agathon

    Author ID: 8789 | 2/13/2008 06:59 AM CST | #112887
  16. Amen, brother! Preach on!

    I’ve said it before elsewhere and I’ll say it again here: the male of the species is far savvier and aware of relationship dynamics than Cosmo and its ilk would have you believe.

    Author ID: 8414 | 2/13/2008 07:00 AM CST | #112888
  17. Divorce, settlements, child support, visitation, who gets the kids on alternating even Sundays?, alimony, dads, step siblings, restraining orders, family court, hearings, and on and on.

    Why would a young man starting out not have the shit scared out him with all that crap?

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/13/2008 07:05 AM CST | #112892
  18. A-freakin’-men, Kim.  Second marriage here, and it’s on the plus side of the ledger.  But if something happens to my sweetie, I’ll not be doing this again.  Too damn much work for returns that get smaller as the years go on.

    Author ID: 897 | 2/13/2008 07:12 AM CST | #112893
  19. I’ll agree with “the Ledger” idea (I never called it that, but I have one), but will note that on the plus side is my belief that sans kids, marriage (and Life) is pretty pointless. My parents divorced when I was in my teens, and I would sooner drown myself in the kitchen sink than shatter my kids’ world like that.

    Author ID: 9681 | 2/13/2008 07:48 AM CST | #112909
  20. It can take surprising little effort for a woman to completely erase all the negative entries in a man’s ledger.  (well, at least for me.) A little attention, a little respect, a little of that married heart stopping sex thing (it’s real!), a little food that she prepared especially for him, a little “thank you” for doing what he does for her.  Any one of those things at the right time does wonders and leaves him wondering why there were any negatives at all.

    Second marriage here.  10 years now and looking forward to the next 60 (what can I say?  I’m an optimist at heart). 

    I wish every man could be so lucky.

    Author ID: 7681 | 2/13/2008 07:56 AM CST | #112911
  21. I’ve managed to get through two divorces relatively unscathed.

    Now that I’m closing in on 50 and own a house, the likelihood of me risking my house and retirement my getting married again grows slimmer by the day.

    Author ID: 142 | 2/13/2008 07:56 AM CST | #112912
  22. I’m 41 and once-divorced.  My ex and I parted on relatively genial terms, so I am not embittered by the divorce process.

    However, I really don’t see any advantage to remarrying.  I have a slew of great friends who share my interests.  My free time is just that: MINE.  I enjoy dating different women and getting to know them for their varied qualities.  And I enjoy not having to buy the cow.

    Author ID: 20 | 2/13/2008 08:00 AM CST | #112913
  23. A-Men to that one Kim!

    I think this post just hit a game winning grandslam and will be commonly referenced in the future!

    Author ID: 7964 | 2/13/2008 08:02 AM CST | #112914
  24. Right on the button, Kim.

    “The Ledger” is real.  But the one positive entry that may delay “the end” forever is . . . the kids.

    The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    Author ID: 9783 | 2/13/2008 08:12 AM CST | #112916
  25. One of your best. Clear, honest, unflinching.

    Author ID: 1632 | 2/13/2008 08:28 AM CST | #112920
  26. I think AORDOVER made a good point as well.  One of the reasons marriage is declining is that the social pressure for men to marry has nearly disappeared.  There were times not that long ago when a single man in his 40’s was considered an object of pity, or was the subject of whispered rumors of homosexuality.  Coupled with that is the fact that men can now get most of the benefits of marriage without the burden, so why would they incur the burdens? 

    The downside is cultural and generational, though:  As Steyn has pointed out, fewer children are being produced, at least partly because people are putting off getting married and having kids.  Fewer kids = fewer workers in the future when we’re all too old to take care of ourselves.  The inevitable result is not pretty:  Either the economy starts contracting because there are fewer people working, buying things and paying taxes, or we start importing workers from somewhere else (which we’ve been doing for years, and we know the results of that.)

    So, as individuals, it is understandable that men are tending to prolong adolescence, because for them as individuals, there’s no downside to it.  But for American culture and society, there’s a significant downside.  It really would be to our benefit to start encouraging men and women to marry earlier and have more children, but in the current political and social climate of “nonjudgment” I just don’t see it happening, unfortunately.  oh oh

    Author ID: 7544 | 2/13/2008 08:29 AM CST | #112921
  27. Amen, Kim.  Rings true to this 33-y-o never married professional.

    Staff,
    Yep.  Soon the only ones left will be Mormons, Mexicans, and Muslims.

    Author ID: 6572 | 2/13/2008 08:42 AM CST | #112925
  28. Excellent post.  My beloved wife of 30 years recently passed away, and I can’t even imagine getting married again, for all the reasons stated.

    Author ID: 10730 | 2/13/2008 08:47 AM CST | #112927
  29. Part of the situation is that marriage requires a great deal of abstraction and idealization - you live tunneling through the reality, toward the ideal.  In the long era of gender-determined social roles there always was some mystery, even if the whole clan slept in the same big hut.  Nowadays so many roles and tasks are androgynous (and no, it’s not necessarily feminism that’s to blame) that there seems to be very little sense of “it’s bigger than both of us.” Indeed I suspect guys nowadays would be more choked up by the oath of enlistment than by marriage vows.

    ..

    Author ID: 6570 | 2/13/2008 08:48 AM CST | #112928
  30. Kim,
    A great piece of writing- which if if ever read by the usual socialist idiots will certainly be vilified as troglodytic.
    I agree with the Little Coach.  I am staying on because I love my kids, and in fact probably still love my wife.  She can’t understand that I didn’t marry her because I wanted a mommy, or a homemaker, a gardener, or an interior decorator. As a private in an Airborne Division I learned how to clean, wash my own clothes, live neatly and take care of myself- I don’t need a nanny.  I know how to cook.  I asked my lover to marry me, without specifically articulating that I loved her and wanted her to stay with me as my lover forever- I did expect to become a father and be the primary breadwinner.  But I am not interested in a platonic relationship with my wife, and the things that she places all of her energy and emphasis on are not important enough for me to even discuss- i.e. I don’t care what color the walls are. When the kids are grown, the bills are paid off, we will only have in common our kids, and there will then be no reason to stay with her.  The ledger is full of negatives with only our kids as positives.

    JimBob

    Author ID: 10894 | 2/13/2008 09:00 AM CST | #112933
  31. Right now I have a flu bug going, and I would love to have someone to take of me right now.  As a guy, I hate being vulnerable, but a sick man seems to transform a healthy woman into “Supernurse”.  Especially the non-married and childless women. Kim, I seriously envy what you and your wife have.  I’m 42, and I feel like my only chance will be to save a lot of money, and “send for” a bride. 

    Kim, it being so near to the heart-themed Hallmark holiday, I would really enjoy the story of how you and Tech Support met and got together.

    Keeping it short--flu meds are affecting my brain.  Any more confused and fevered and I’d have join the Kucinich campaign. confused

    Author ID: 10816 | 2/13/2008 09:02 AM CST | #112935
  32. Just in, to help verify the “men are clinical” claim:
    News BBC

    Make sure and read the formula for picking up a girl. Perhaps Kim can devise a similar equation around the marriage question.

    Author ID: 8653 | 2/13/2008 09:20 AM CST | #112942
  33. I am one fortunate enough to have a wife that treats me like a man and allows me to treat her like a woman, and oh do I love her for it!

    Author ID: 9773 | 2/13/2008 09:23 AM CST | #112943
  34. Unfortunately, Antibubba, Kim and I have been suffering with (probably) the same flu bug.  Three weeks ago it was a cold that quickly turned to bronchitis (Kim first, then me), but I was out of town on a biz trip for the worst of his.

    Then, just about the time our prescriptions for the bronchitis were finished (which we blamed for the icky/nauseous feelings) we realized we had acquired some sort of flu bug.

    We’ve been sick for THREE weeks.  So, while the normal rule about wives turning into nurses is true, we’ve both been unable to nurture the other, except for rare exceptions when one of us has enough energy to walk.

    This is the time when adult kids come in really handy.  Daughter has been nursemaid and doing all the shopping/errands and baby brother chauffeuring (as well as doing his chores and keeping the house going), and bringing food to her starving and miserable parents.

    There was a time when I worried about that girl… but some where/time she turned into an angel… and is (to quote an Chinese expression) “a pearl in the hand.”

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 09:29 AM CST | #112945
  35. Thank you Kim this should be required reading for all men,i have seen so many of my friends marrige’s go wrong over the years and as i came to the decision a long time ago that i did not want kids “i remember too well what a monster i was” and did not want to put myself through the same, like Antibubba each time i am unwell i find myself thinking it would be nice to have someone to look after me but i recover and remember the benefits of being single give myself a shake and go shooting.

    Author ID: 8785 | 2/13/2008 09:31 AM CST | #112946
  36. As someone who was once married and long since divorced, no kids, and possessed of precisely the lack of any slobbering desire to have another go described above, my reaction to Kim’s analysis is exactly that of Otto Preminger, after directing himself in his scenes as Nazi POW camp commandant in Stalag 17:

    Cut. Print. Brilliant!

    There is also a ruthless state-instituted calculus to the whole arrangement:
    It takes two people to be married.
    It takes only one to be divorced.

    Society cannot beat those odds, try though its members may, and despite any random anecdotal successes of individual pairs.

    The state can fix that, or else stop bothering us about it.

    Author ID: 9097 | 2/13/2008 09:36 AM CST | #112947
  37. It is surprising how very accurate this post is.  I’m approaching 27 rapidly, and my patience for some of the bullshit games women play has dropped off at an exponential rate for years now.  Just thought I’d throw in my two cents of agreement.

    Author ID: 7717 | 2/13/2008 10:10 AM CST | #112956
  38. Just remember, you younger guys out there. No matter how good she looks, long legs that go from the floor all the way up to her ass, nice firm breasts that stand at attention like a Legionnaire, short skirt, hi heels and a lo lo cut top with a look that says she can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch there’s some poor bastard in a dumpy dirty apartment she hasn’t cleaned, ever, laundry piled everywhere, stale food all over and dozens of empty beer cans too. He’s just one more bitch from tellin her to GTF out and take her 2 bratty little rug rats with her!

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/13/2008 10:29 AM CST | #112962
  39. Amen, brother!  As a never-married 60 y-o, I am often asked by women “how come you never got married?” My preferred response would be along the lines of “what the @%&*!!% makes that any of your business?”, but as a courteous, polite, old-fashioned male, my actual response is:  “Just lucky, I guess.” That tends to end the questioning.

    Author ID: 8099 | 2/13/2008 10:31 AM CST | #112963
  40. OK, so there is agreement about the reasons.

    How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    Folks aren’t even replacing themselves, let alone increasing our population in the way we should.

    Have too many people bought into the “the earth is too populated” nonsense?

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 10:34 AM CST | #112964
  41. None of the underlying causes matter.  If women decide to wait until marriage, men will get motivated to marry.

    Author ID: 6261 | 2/13/2008 10:41 AM CST | #112967
  42. How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/13/2008 02:34 PM EDT | #112964

    ----

    Having an economy that will permit the average guy to support a family on one income will go a long way toward relieving the stresses associated with marriage.

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/13/2008 10:53 AM CST | #112972
  43. An excellent piece. I have nothing to add about the main body of the piece, just an observation- in my experience the only women interesting enough to spend time with as *people* (as opposed to pleasurable objects) have all been current or former tomboys.

    I suspect they’re the only ones left who have made any effort to understand men and appreciate their positive qualities. Everyone else has absorbed the active disdain for men and masculine qualities that is so pervasive in our culture. I’ve never had trouble finding desirable relationship partners, and I am not exactly a Casanova. But I can’t stand girly-girls and prefer women I can talk to- and I (luckily for me) have never objected to tomboys. And when they do want to discover their feminine side, it’s amazing what just a little encouragement can get you. wink

    Life is too short (or too long, either would apply) to spend it with someone you don’t *like*.

    Author ID: 362 | 2/13/2008 11:00 AM CST | #112973
  44. soon to be 38 and unmarried.

    I have only found one woman in my life whose ledger balance tempted me.

    She made it clear, there was no need as she didn’t Love me, only loved me.  A distinction I’m still not sure I understand.  But I am a firm believer in direct honesty and certainly better before than after and better honest then having her use the uneven levels of feeling against me.  So I give her credit for integrity.

    At this point, I rather doubt that I will ever marry.  Shame, because I know I would be a great husband and/or a great father. 

    I completely agree with pdwalker. 
    I don’t need a whole lot. 
    Show me appreciation when I go out of my way to be romantic.  Don’t DEMAND it.
    Give me a hug and kiss me when I notice your oil needs changing and tires rotated and I do it. 
    Smile and thank me when I get up early on Sunday and (quietly) make apple cinnamon stuffed french toast, scrambled eggs and bacon with fresh squeezed orange juice to go along with your morning cup of coffee and the paper.  Maybe even notice and comment that you were able to sleep in because I fed the dog and kept her out of your bedroom until you were ready to get up.

    Maybe its just the proximity to Singles Awareness Day (Feb 14th).  But just like that day, it seems like the deck is stacked against males.  We need to do something dramatic / over the top romantic or we are castigated as brutes, but all the women need to do is buy us a card, give us a kiss and hint that IF our gift / plan is good, we will get “special” bedroom access. 

    Not exactly helping the ledger balance and I am only shooting for the 70 percent solution.

    Author ID: 9952 | 2/13/2008 11:00 AM CST | #112974
  45. How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    I don’t think you can.  It’s a Pandora’s Box.  With birth control it became possible to de-couple sex from marriage.  In days past, a couple girls would get pregnant and sent off to the bad girls school, scaring the rest enough to minimize the appeal of single promiscuity and encourage marriage as a safe outlet for the natural desires.  People got married at 18-20 and in the natural course had babies and joined the community.

    Now men and women engage in serial promiscuity until the women hit their 30s and then, like a switch, the biological clock starts ticking and they demand that men change and form families with them.  Trouble is that for men (1) the biological clock hasn’t hit so they aren’t motivated to change; and (2) the madonna/whore complex is ingrained, so the type of promiscuous woman they wanted to date is not the type of woman they want to marry, and the latter pools has shrunk almost to nothing these days. 

    When you throw on top of this an economy that routinely requires people to move (breaking up communities) and a legal system that dramatically raises the costs of marriage for men (no fault divorce), you get what we have today - a sea of individuals with little or no connection to family or society.

    The only way to change this would be to make promiscuity “costly” again, especially for females (the gatekeepers of sex).  But there is zero political will to do this, so it will not happen.  In the end, America faces the fate of mythical Atlantis - a great society destroyed because it discovered a power (control over reproduction) it did not have the wisdom to use.

    Author ID: 455 | 2/13/2008 11:03 AM CST | #112975
  46. There’s no social pressure without there being society. And that’s what’s missing, I think. What are young men a part of, these days? To what do they feel as though the belong, and owe a debt to (if only a debt to pick something up and carry it and pass it along)? The military, for those who are a part of it. But beyond that?

    Author ID: 8789 | 2/13/2008 11:06 AM CST | #112976
  47. Reading a couple of other comments reminded me of something, a quote (I have to paraphrase):

    “No matter how hot the woman, you always have to remember that somewhere is a guy who is sick of that.”

    And he’s sick of it for a *reason*.

    Author ID: 362 | 2/13/2008 11:08 AM CST | #112977
  48. Finding the right woman to marry is almost like finding a suitable politician: the only people suitable for the job aren’t particularly fond of accepting the position, but do so out of a profound sense of duty and/or love.

    Me, I’ve found such a woman, and what a wonderful woman she is. If she were to pass before me (not bloody likely, barring an accident or act of God), and I wasn’t an old geezer by that time, it’s very unlikely I’d remarry - just find some young play thing, if anything at all. My wife has already provided us with two wonderful children, and there’d be no replacing, or substituting for her.

    Author ID: 8152 | 2/13/2008 11:11 AM CST | #112978
  49. Excellent Post! And exactly what I have been doing for the last 30 years. I have seen repeatedly all the ridiculous and terrible things that have happened to other men out there and this has contined to be reinforced my entire life.

    Author ID: 6577 | 2/13/2008 11:12 AM CST | #112980
  50. Just an un-thought-out theory here, but anyhow. . .

    I uspsect that a lot of what makes “Western Civilization” civilized got subsumed into religion - not so much because it belonged there, but becuase “god said so” was the most straightforward and reliable method of ensuring that it got done ofen enough.

    With the decline in devout, active, religous participation too many people are discarding what they see as the trappings of religion, when what they’re really discarding are the foundation blocks of our civilization itself.

    Until we can and do make the effort to identify and extract those elements from religion, and then repackage them as societal elements, things will continue to get worse, and probably at an ever-increasing rate.  With its focus on effects, the government’s solutions always manage to miss the causes and of course create new problems as well.

    Author ID: 7959 | 2/13/2008 11:17 AM CST | #112981
  51. Brilliant post.

    I’ve been married for 25 years now, and I still *do* love my wife.  And I’m happy being married to her, even with the compromises.

    Not that she doesn’t compromise, too - I recall reading, somewhere, that for a marriage to last that both parties need to be willing to give at least 60% of the time.  And, many times both will honestly believe that they are giving way many more times than the other realizes.

    The point is, that after all this time there are still things that are important to her that I have to remind myself to do because they just aren’t important to me, except that they make her happy.  There are times I need to remind her that at least half of the things she does “for me” are really, mostly, hers.  And that she sometimes ignores the things that are important to me in favor of the things she thinks (or hopes) should be important.

    Despite occasional grumbles and ongoing minor adjustments, I think we’re happy to be married to each other.  I know I am!  But she’s got history and a large store of good will laid up with me (and, I hope, I have with her).  I can’t imagine giving as freely to anyone else.

    If something were to happen to her - or, almost as bad, to our marriage - I’d be very, very, reluctant to ever consider marrying again, for just the reasons you lay out.

    Author ID: 9280 | 2/13/2008 11:18 AM CST | #112982
  52. Precision- I’ve seen that loved/Loved distinction before.

    Yes, she loved you, but she didn’t feel that Romantic idolization that screamed in her heart “he’s the One”. She has bought into the Romantic love foolishness to an unhealthy degree and is not willing to settle for Mr. Good, when she has been taught that she must find Mr. Perfect.

    Well either that, or, no offense, the other way I’ve seen that distinction used is as a polite way of saying you fail to sufficiently arouse her. (How do you “just friend” someone you’ve already slept with and are already in a relationship with? That’s how.)

    Author ID: 362 | 2/13/2008 11:18 AM CST | #112983
  53. Connie, we start by killing communists that want to destroy the nuclear family then tell the socialists they’re next. A lot of the government/political aggrevators would be removed by that.

    Once that has begun, we become more tolerant of the James Dobsons and Pat Robertsons of the world and less tolerant of the “entertainment industry”.

    Then we shun and ostrasize dead beat parents.

    I’m not saying any of that will be easy but killing commies will be fun.

    JimBob, that’s about the most depressing thing I’ve read all week. Sorry to hear it.

    Author ID: 8569 | 2/13/2008 11:20 AM CST | #112984
  54. Have too many people bought into the “the earth is too populated” nonsense?

    For me it’s the expense of having to raise a tribe, and give them a decent start in life. I suspect others look at those same economics as well.

    Author ID: 112 | 2/13/2008 11:36 AM CST | #112986
  55. Kim, this is right on.  I have to say that I heard about the ‘Ledger’ from a friend about 20 years ago.  I’ve never discussed it with anyone but him and thought it a rather unique way to judge a relationship and every one I’ve been in has had a tally sheet in my brain.  My friend’s step-father talked about relationships and told the following story. 

    “Charlie” had been a firefighter and worked a few days on and a few days off.  He was married to a smoking hot blonde and all the other firefighters used to tell him how lucky he was.  Charlie was polite and would say thanks, but never got excited about it.  What made Charlie excited was seeing another firefighter’s wife who was ‘average’ and brought him his favorite meal for every shift, franks and beans.  Charlie divorced his wife, left the fire dept. and married again and one day was asked what ever happened and how he could say he wasn’t happy with the hot blonde.  Charlie stated that she was never there for him and he is happy with his new bride as, no matter what, he always gets his franks and beans.  (condensed “Wag more. Bark Less")

    I think that the mix of a lot of things you touch on here are accurate for a lot of men.  A lot of guys went to one well, including me, about 20 years ago.  Well, I came up with the short straw at the state test.  If the kid is mine, I want all the rights of being a father, right?  Yeah, right.  I was abusive, a cheat, blah, blah… State says, ‘you gotta pay for those rights.’ And pay I have.  My oldest will be 20 in a few days.  I’m still paying the state and will be for a few more.  It put me off of dating for years and marriage as well.  Lucky for an open mind I met a wonderful and forgiving woman.  Too many plusses to count but those few negatives can loom large on the tough days.  I’m not big on franks and beans but she does cook fresh veggies a few times a week (and likes to shoot her 20 ga.).

    Again, an excellent post.  I’ll share this with a few of the young men in my office before they take the plunge.

    Author ID: 10034 | 2/13/2008 11:56 AM CST | #112988
  56. there are still things that are important to her that I have to remind myself to do because they just aren’t important to me, except that they make her happy.

    This is important. Until you (not you, the author of the quote--just the general “you") starts thinking that what makes someone else happy is important to you--and, more, is a component of your own personal happiness--there is no point to marriage...or hope for it.

    Author ID: 8789 | 2/13/2008 12:07 PM CST | #112990
  57. Kim:

    I am a 64-year-old that was married the first time to a screamer for 7 of the worst years of my life.  I stuck around so long because no one in my family had ever divorced, so it wasn’t on my social horizon.  I left my first love, the Marine Corps---resigned my hard-earned Regular commission---to come back to the ‘States and try to patch things up. It didn’t work.

    I was lucky enough to find and marry the love of my life---a tomboy NOLS graduate, backpacker, technical climber, kyaker, rough weather sailor, sometime downhill ski bum, and one-time professional Nordic ski guide in Yellowstone, who still shoots occasionally, knows that I like to, and humors my desire for guns and motorcycles---and we are closing in on 30 years of happy marriage.  She spent a number of years with me as an Armor company commander’s wife in Germany,which is where our now-grownup daughter was born.

    But, sadly, all of the guys I know and spend time with are either divorced or in marriages where they are miserable most of the time.  I subscribe to everything you wrote.

    As a career military guy, however, I have spent a total of 9 years and change outside of the U.S., and I can certify that in some other cultures in other countries women are still free to be women, prefer to be so, and they accomplish that by wanting their men to be men.  If you are striking out here, look elsewhere.

    Author ID: 9733 | 2/13/2008 12:29 PM CST | #112992
  58. Greg,

    Yes I understand the Love/love thing in the abstract.  I realize that she was saying that something didn’t add up to “butterflies” for her.  But butterflies are an abstact BS sensation brought on by too many cheesy romance novels, that GOES AWAY (or at least loses its impact) over time.  Being best friends, loving each other, fitting comfortably into each others lives and both sides having the “more wag, very little bark” is what the long term is about.

    Like I said.  I am looking (would be elated to find) the 70% solution.  She is looking for the 98% solution.  I asked her if she has ever found that.  Her response was, yes, with my ex-husband. 

    How do you argue against that logic?

    But like I said, I count my blessings that she isn’t a user, because I would gladly have given and given and given.  Stupid sap that I can be.

    Oh and it wasn’t about lack of arousal.  We had no difficulties there.

    Author ID: 9952 | 2/13/2008 12:32 PM CST | #112994
  59. The Little Coach said:

    The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    I have to agree.  I got married at 37 to a 25 y.o. bride (I met her in Mexico, long story for a different time).  After having been married for a year or so, I understood how lucky I was to have been single (while still appreciating the company and the regular nookie that I wouldn’t have gotten without being married).  Don’t get me wrong, I loved (and still love) my wife.  When she’s acting normally, when she doesn’t complain endlessly about shit that is in the past (and which, by definition, I can’t do ONE FUCKING THING ABOUT), when she’s not there scheduling all of my off time to her liking...I love her dearly.  She’s gotten better over time - maybe it is maturity, maybe it is that she knows me better, maybe I’ve mellowed a bit - but there are still THOSE times when I honestly wonder what demon possessed me to ask for her hand.  Oh well, I imagine that she probably wonders what demon made her say “yes” - because, honestly, I’m pretty far from perfect.  Now I have the wisdom to understand my then future FIL’s question/warning when his daughter told him we were getting married:  “Are you drunk?” Ooh, boy, there are times when I think that I should have listened. 

    But those kids...damn, I wouldn’t trade them and their happiness for the world, let alone the peace to be able to rule my spare time as I see fit 100% of the time.  I’ve got a 6 y.o. daughter (who has a lot of the personality traits of her mother - I already pity my future SIL, as well as being jealous of the bastard for stealing my little girl) and a 3 y.o. minime who are truly the joy of my life.  When they smile, there are no problems (no, not even the prospect of a Hillary-Obama team in the WH can touch that, not for those first few minutes after they get up or I get home).  As bad as things can sometimes get, not seeing them grow up, not being able to be with them, not being able to help mold them, etc. is just not acceptable - not for any reason.

    I, like every other married person, like to bitch about my spouse.  Sometimes the bitching is justified and accurate, sometimes it is just blowing off steam.  Overall, I’m pretty happy - but without the kids I might have split some time ago.  Father’s duty - you bring ‘em into this world, you’ve got to take care of them, even if it hurts, even if you’re not the happiest person in the world.  Oh, and BTW, it is absolutely the truth that the little ones CAUSE a lot of marital stress - so some of the shit that men have to deal with ISN’T the wife’s fault.  Heck, fairness and reality dictate that many times they shield us from a lot of the stress and take it upon themselves - for which we should be thankful.  Like everything else in life, there’s very little black and white - most of it is some shade of gray.

    In conclusion, if something happens to my wife - whom I love despite our problems - I won’t be getting remarried...at least not until I find someone who is a bit of a tomboy (that seems to be the right formula for understanding and treating a man right).  My problem is that there are precious few Jewish tomboys out there, and probably even fewer who I wouldn’t have to get completely drunk to sleep with.

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    Nothing like an easy, unambitious question.  :>) Kim, you certainly can’t say that the “<acronym title="My wife, partner, and technical support, Connie du Toit, as described by a feminist reader.">Imaginary Wife</acronym>” doesn’t give you a lot of “imaginary” challenges.  At least you guys see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues, and your love, respect and admiration for each other let you overcome those times when Kim is so obviously wrong.  :>)

    If I knew the answer and could implement it, I’d be wealthy beyond even Bill Gates’ imagination, and I’d deserve it.  I don’t, but I’ll accept the challenge and take a stab at it.

    First, society has to recognize that there IS a problem.  So long as the idiot media and press (/oxymoron) keep telling us that more of the same shit that put us in this predicament is not only OK, but is necessary, we’ll have no chance at even considering a solution as a society.  Maybe we’ll need a good whack over the head to figure out that there’s a problem that needs solving - like too many immigrants changing the nature of our society and draining our resources, a federal welfare system that is so expensive that the shortage of workers puts us on the road to bankruptcy, etc.  Uh, ummm, oh - nevermind.  Maybe we won’t wake up until half of the presstitutes get beheaded by the oh-so-kind-and-openminded members of the ROP.

    Anyhow, once we recognize a problem, the next step is understanding the cause(s).  If you ask me, the decline of morality - caused and aided largely by the missing influence of religion - is a major reason.  Out of this also comes extreme liberalism - which, in my book, stems more from a lack of understanding of the concept of responsibility than anything else.  No religion for MOST people means having no higher morality authority, which seems to be a signal to do whatever strikes your mind as the most pleasurable at that moment.  Having kids, except for the first few minutes of the process, usually ain’t fun, and it is certainly a very expensive proposition (which doesn’t appeal to lots of people).  Having kids also entails responsbility, LOTS of it - and the lack of kids only reinforces the general attitude of “fun is good, responsibility is a drag that I can and will do everything possible to avoid.” The ACLU bears a lot of the responsibility for this, IMHO.  So does organized religion, which hasn’t adequately advocated for itself, and which also hasn’t (in many cases) adequately governed its very human leaders to be sure that their natural human weaknesses (lust, corruption, love of power, etc.) don’t tarnish the image of religion in general, and their religion in particular.

    I also blame our secular leaders.  What the Hell ever happened to make loving your country and its symbols a “bad thing?” Why can a dunce like Obama not put his hand over his heart and say the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem, and yet be very close to being nominated by one of the 2 major political parties for President?  What’s happened to educating our youth about the good things that our society offers, and giving students enough information to say, “damn, but I’m glad not to live in a
    shithole 3rd World country-so glad that I’ll serve in the Army and defend this country against all comers?” Where do you hear that nowadays?

    Moving away from a self-hating Socialist system (yeah, I know:  /oxymoron), one that would enable the large-scale return of the single-earner household, would do wonders for our nation.  Telling the Socialist SOBs in Congress and our state legislatures “Fuck you, go home and earn an honest living instead of taking our money and telling us how to live our lives” would do the trick after a decade or 2.  We can start by showing up at the polls and voting to stop the Socialist SOBs - all of them, starting from the top (and YES that means voting for McStain, no matter how much it hurts.  As Kim says, “I love my country more than I hate McCain").

    Author ID: 7384 | 2/13/2008 12:41 PM CST | #112997
  60. Tech, you and I have gone round on the population thing before- I think the basic problem is that the type of people who formed our country are not reproducing- I.e. those believe in a western republic. On the other hand, those who do not, seem to be replicating themselves worldwide with quite some vigor.  But my viewpoint is biased being a country boy at heart, I miss the open lands, (and not just the ones that are too barren to support life, but the woodlands and farms).

    Author ID: 8821 | 2/13/2008 01:08 PM CST | #113004
  61. I am on my second marriage. My first was a disaster, my second is sort of OK. If any man was thinking of getting married, I would refer him to two websites: nomarriage.com and americanwomensuck.com. I rather agree that the modern western women in general has attitudes that make marriage very difficult, and divorce a horrendous and odds-on reality. Modern laws give men a terrible deal when marriages do break up. As someone has said, why not save yourself a lot of trouble - just find someone you don’t like and give them your house ...

    I am convinced for a number of reasons that many marriages are either totally or virtually without sexual relations after a few years. A lot of men have the downside of marriage without any of the benefits, and it is only the fear of the inequity and cruelty of the divorce process and the ever present threat of losing access to their children that keep them locked in, until she decides otherwise.

    My wife, thankfully, is not a feminist, and is a good cook. She refused to have children (much to my sadness), so I have no idea what that is like, but I have known more than a few men who are suffering from horrible kids or nice kids they are not allowed to see.

    My advice to any man is to stay single, and, if I had my time again, that is absolutely what I would do.

    Author ID: 10893 | 2/13/2008 01:17 PM CST | #113006
  62. That’s so sad.  Kim is my WHOLE LIFE.  Yes, the kids are in there, too, but I don’t want to live a minute longer than he does.  In fact, I’d prefer to die the second he does so neither of us has a moment of misery without the other.

    That is so wonderful to have.  He is my best friend, my lover, my husband, my partner.  He’s my better side, my conscience, my protector, and my sounding board.  WE are the example to our children of what a good marriage can and should be.

    I didn’t think it was possible.  I thought that what I wanted in a partner was a fantasy (and my ex kept reminding me of that fact while we were in a miserable marriage).

    But it IS possible.  I see other couples just as engaged and involved with their partners (those who make up our circle of friends).  But I also know couples who seem to hate each other and are mean to each other (in public!).

    I don’t know why that is.  I don’t know why they remain together or haven’t found a way to find peace and settle those disagreements.  Why live that way if you can avoid it?  Life is SHORT!

    But not take the risk and have not found the happiness in marriage that I found with Kim??? I’d be crazy not to have risked it.

    Every single day of my life is joy and bliss with this man.  I get to sleep next to this man EVERY night and I resent a few days of business travel that takes me away from that.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 01:33 PM CST | #113008
  63. Kim is the most blessed man on earth.

    Author ID: 9783 | 2/13/2008 01:49 PM CST | #113009
  64. No, I’m the lucky one, Coach.  I do NOT know why he puts up with me, but whatever magic spell he’s been under that keeps him thinking he should keep me around, I hope never wears off!

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 01:56 PM CST | #113011
  65. The whole damn thing is sad. I would LOVE to be married happily. Not sure it can happen now. Women have unrealistic expctations of marriage and what it is all about. I KNOW I cannot/will not/ don’t want to be all those things that are now “required” in a marriage. The last gf I had wanted a HUGE house in the ‘burbs (that alone sinks it for me) - the house I live in wasn’t good enough; wanted to take expensive trips; stay at home; large suv; a maid AND a nanny and wanted quit working so she could hang out with her friends...I am not exaggerating one bit. This was her stated “conditions” for marriage. Now she didn’t just list these “requirements” at one time, but rather gradually they came out in normal talk. When asked what HER responsiblities would be, she said, none…

    The crowning benediction was when she told me that making $100k wasn’t enough for her husband - and further, that he had to always be making more money to “make her happy.” At that point I recalled her dad died in his 40s - because he had been worked to death by her mom. I just kinda laughed and ended the evening early...and the “relationship” for good.

    The sad thing is that I have met several girls after her and one of the first things they wanted to know was, “what do you do for a living.” Now I make VERY good money, have a couple of cars, access to a camp on a river, to boats and to some of the finer things in life. But once a woman asks that question on a first date, for me it’s over. One even proceeded to tell me about how her she “really took her ex to the cleaners when he got a new job,” for additional child support. Boy that sure made me more attracted to her. Funny thing is, she, along with a couple of others, misrepresented herself as being “average” but when they actually showed up, the were fat pigs...which is no problem, but don’t LIE about it...and use faked/old photos to attract men…

    Where did it all go wrong?

    Author ID: 7763 | 2/13/2008 02:04 PM CST | #113012
  66. Something you failed to touch upon:

    Women (the majority) CHANGE—and not for the better—after marriage.

    My first was HORRENDOUS.  Daughter born 10months and 2days from the night we met, so I “did the right thing” by a VERY messed-up woman.

    Eventually getting out with my life (and eventually my kids) became the new “right thing.”

    I SWORE I’d NEVER EVER get married again.

    Along came THE PERFECT woman.  I haven’t changed, but ...  I hardly recognize her any more.  Bitter, cranky… “Conversation” consists of an unending litany of all the ways in which everything in her life—particularly me—aren’t meeting her expectations.

    Thing is, everything was GREAT for YEARS up until the wedding—~7 years into the relationship, you’d think you know all there is to know about someone, but… It’s like a bad body-snatcher movie.  What the hell happened?

    Thing is, I am NOT alone.  Every (ok, everyone but Kim) I know or read about has the same story, to the point that “wedding cake” is known to be the one food that can turn Ms. Jekyll into Mrs. Hyde.

    Why?

    Best of all, when I finally pull the plug, I’ll be denounced by all and sundry as a “pig” or worse, who “abandoned” her.

    WTF??

    DD

    Author ID: 8950 | 2/13/2008 02:04 PM CST | #113013
  67. heh.

    That’s WHY Kim and I didn’t get married for five years, DD.  We were worried we turn into married people and start hating each other.  Why risk a perfect relationship? (we thought).

    Boy, were WE wrong.  It got a million times BETTER.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 02:08 PM CST | #113015
  68. In most states, a good pre-nup can at least greatly reduce the financial risk of a man about to embark on a marriage. It won’t take care of all the issues Kim points out, but it will make it a lot cheaper to pull the ripcord and bail if you find out you’ve married a harpy two years in.

    The money you spend on a pre-nup (and it may be several thousand, or more, if you have lots of assets) will be some of the best money you’ve ever spent.

    Author ID: 9888 | 2/13/2008 02:09 PM CST | #113017
  69. Imaginary Wife/Tech Support:

    As a retired lieutenant colonel I am not a guy to choke up, mostly, but your tribute to your relationship with Kim kind of caused my eyes to sweat.  Kim and I may be two of the luckiest men in America, having two bright, loving, understanding women to share the rest of our lives with.  Bless you and my wife Cindy both for being there for us, and for understanding that men and women are wonderfully different, and that that is not a bad thing.

    Happy Valentine’s Day

    Author ID: 9733 | 2/13/2008 02:20 PM CST | #113019
  70. How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    It’s not just men who are not getting married and having children. Have you looked at the comments on this post over at Rachel Lucas’s? Rachel and scads of others there are talking about how they have no regrets over not having had children and/or gotten married.

    Author ID: 209 | 2/13/2008 02:26 PM CST | #113020
  71. I think a lot of it has to do with our culture’s definition of love as something you “get.” It’s a commodity--or maybe even an entitlement. That’s why there’s so much shrieking about not having expectations met. Where was all that love I was promised?  When, in fact, love is something you do. And because of that, it does require--definitionally--some amount of sacrifice--because it’s what you do (day to day, forever) for someone else, for the sake of something larger than you (that does include you). It’s an action. It’s a verb. That is the love upon which marriages is built--not the feeling. Feelings are transitory and arbitrary. Nice to have but not need to have. Our ancestors weren’t “in love” with each other all the time. But their dedication of their lives to each other, to build families (and farms, towns, states, countries...) was an act of love.

    NOTHING in our culture speaks of love this way. So why should any of our young people grow up prepared to offer love, when all they’ve been taught is that it’s their god-given right to receive it like a birthday present?

    Author ID: 8789 | 2/13/2008 03:00 PM CST | #113023
  72. How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers? 
    ...
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/13/2008 12:34 PM CST | #112964

    This is a HUGE part of the problem, but NOT LIKE YOU THINK.

    PLEASE check out “Divorced Dads:  Shattering The Myths” by Dr. Sanford Braver.

    MOST men—MOST—want nothing more than to be allowed to be “attentive fathers”.

    Malicious Mothers (with all the power of the State at her behest) abuse the system for financial gain and revenge (not necessarily in that order).

    Women initiate ~75% of divorces, and most often list “we just grew apart” as the reason.

    Whoever gets the kids, gets the cash, and our system almost always ensures that is HER.  Add in the “Restraining order” guarantee, and reward it with de-facto custody which will soon be rubber-stamped in “family court.” Relegate the poor, broke guy to every-other-weekend “visits” with his kids.

    and most of all, understand that THOSE ARE THE LUCKY ONES.

    If she chooses to interfere with his visitation, she can do so with impunity in most places.

    She finds a new beau, and wants Dad to “butt out” in favor of their NEW “daddy.” Naturally loss of contact doesn’t mean he gets to stop sending checks…

    If he won’t step aside, she moves across the country.  The courts in most cases won’t stop her.  If he follows he’s a “stalker” if he doesn’t, he’s “inattentive.”

    He can spend his life savings (and more) fighting just to get the weekends he was allotted, while watching her spend the “child support” on jewelry and booze or drugs, and can’t do a damn thing about it.

    With the deck so heavily stacked against them, getting their ass kicked a few times teaches most men to shut up, pay up, and go away.  That’s what she wanted, and the State helped her achieve it, now all can pile on to blame him for bailing out on his kid.

    I found my reason for “being” when I first held my daughter.  Nothing, and noone, were going to keep us apart for long so long as I had breath in my body.  I made this clear to EVERYONE who would listen.

    I don’t want to take them from her, but I’ll be damned if I’ll let her take them from ME.

    ~$200k / 7-years / several false arrests / malicious allegations of sexual abuse later, I finally got them out.  They’ve thrived since, and have become amazing young ladies in most respects, yet Mom still continues her malicious game-playing with impunity. 

    Most men simply don’t have the ca$h, the stamina, or the pain-tolerance to continue such a battle.  Most eventually give up, move on, and wait for the eventual emancipation of both child and father/slave.  Honestly I can’t blame them, but the pain of the fight was (for me) nothing next to the pain of separation from the only people I have ever truly loved—the little-people who gave me LIFE.  I’d die before I’d crawl away and leave them to grow up as damaged as their mother.

    Most men are smart enough to know when they’re beat, but I’ve never had the good-sense to “stay down” until beaten into unconsciousness.  I didn’t “win” I just refused to give up, and she eventually showed her true colors to all who cared to look.  That, and I presented so much documentation that Hizzonner eventually had no choice but to do the right thing.

    That I’m tenacious to an insane degree doesn’t make all the other men “inattentive” or “deadbeats.”

    Most men don’t NEED pressure to be attentive fathers—all they need is the g*d-damn OPPORTUNITY.

    What we NEED to do is PUNISH any woman who would willfully deprive their child its Father without a damn good reason as the CHILD ABUSER that she is. 

    We need to STOP using the power of the state as a malicious mother’s “enforcer.”

    We need to end the financial incentives inherent in “child support” and abolish it, in favor of a presumption of true “joint” custody with a 50/50 division of parenting rights and responsibilities.  If any money must change hands, it needs to be handled as any other “trust” with documentation of actual expenditures ON THE CHILD.

    We need a “system” that encourages people to work together and raise their kids instead of encouraging them to wage an all-out/scorched-earth/winner-take-all WAR against each other.

    We need to punish false accusations with the same penalty connected to the crime which was falsely alleged. 

    We need to enforce the penalties against perjury.

    In sum, If we want fewer “deadbeat dads” we need to stop beating dads to death.

    DD

    Author ID: 8950 | 2/13/2008 03:05 PM CST | #113024
  73. For the 5% of guys who don’t know the ‘door test’ to give to girls on your first date.

    Make sure your car is locked on both sides, passenger and driver. When you approach your car you of course open the door for her and close it when she’s safely seated. Now you walk around the back of the car and if you have to use your key to open your side, throw her out of the car! The selfish primadonna bitch isn’t worth another minute of your time if she just sits there like a f’n princess while you struggle to open the car door. You’re gonna pay starting on that date.
    On the other hand, if she leans over to open the driver side, maybe you got yourself a winner.

    I know I know, keyless entry etc obsoletes the old door test. So think of something similar.
    I knew this in Brooklyn long before it was in the movie!
    Trust me, it works!

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/13/2008 03:08 PM CST | #113025
  74. PS to TS:  I wasn’t ranting AT you, hope it didn’t come off that way.  This is a HOT BUTTON for me (if you haven’t noticed...) ... =o )

    Author ID: 8950 | 2/13/2008 03:12 PM CST | #113026
  75. How do we fix it?

    I think part of it is the manner in which we conduct our education.

    Primary (K-12) education ought to leave a graduate with enough skills to be an independent individual.  Kids are graduating high school with a fair bit of knowledge(if they pay attention) but very little in the way of useful skills.  This means that they have to go on to further education and go into debt to do so.
    I would say that there is also a significant mental gear shift around age 20, in how the mind perceives certain needs. One of those needs is sex but that’s just one of a bunch.  It’’s a mental perspective time bomb that leaves our typical postmodern college student overwhelmed and confused, unless they have enough of a handle on their own situation to be able to make time for finding that special someone.  Among other things, that means being able to earn enough money to secure the means of independence.

    The problem with how we handle secondary education is that we do not really make independence a prerequisite for going into it.

    If it were possible to transform the standards of primary education, such that a high school graduate would, on top of having collected all the common skills of personal independence, have collected either two to three vocational certificates or some equivalent of a 2-year college degree, it would do a lot.  Students would be in a position to manage more of their own secondary education, they would be financially responsible for themselves, and the attitude would eventually manifest in their voting habits If it were made a singular goal to promulgate a culture of independence to the nation’s children, one student at a time, it would be the death knell for socialism.

    You know why I harp on this a lot?  I’ve had to think about it a great deal.  I flunked out of college after three semesters.  I developed some bad study habits through grade school, but in the first half of each semester I was doing quite well in trying to break them.  What happened after a while though was that I lost focus, because I simply had nothing to look forward to on a daily/weekly basis.  I had no car, couldn’t land a job, and as a result had no means to get away from it all, let alone try dating.  To keep from going into self-destruct mode, I have tried to treat every outside factor in my growing up years as a problem to be solved- if not for myself, for those who go after me.
    Now, I think, the biggest problem left unsolved is the cost of implementing the solution:  A private school chain whose chief goal is independence for individuals, whose methods keep parents connected, and whose multifarious educational services might eventually render public schools obsolete.

    Author ID: 1552 | 2/13/2008 03:14 PM CST | #113027
  76. 53, never married.  Long story, I won’t bore you with it.  But, in the immortal words of Jayne Cobb, “That’s why I never kiss ‘em on the mouth”.

    Author ID: 1185 | 2/13/2008 03:35 PM CST | #113031
  77. TS/IW is, course, correct in saying that reluctance to have children is the death sentence on a civilisation. It is an example of what can be sensible for the individual being negative for the community. For example, it makes sense for an individual professional fisherman to use the latest technology to maximise his catch, but it rapidly leads to fished-out, dead waters if everyone does it. Likewise it is sensible for many individual men to avoid marriage and fatherhood for the reasons DD and others have given.

    The destruction of the family has been a long-term goal of the left in pursuit of their crazy, theoretical utopia, which is why they brought in easy divorce, first encouraged and later forced women out to work, promoted militant feminism and destroyed the idea of masculinity. Just look at TV adverts that show men as useless figures of fun. Traditional families are the bedrock of a stable society. Independent families on their own small farms with their own food, water and weapons are the bedrock of a free society, beyond total control by politicians and, therefore, anathema to socialists. Left wing economic policies destroyed family farms and individual small businesses through penal taxation and inflation. (We laugh at mediaeval kings debasing the coinage with base metals - they were mere amateurs compared to the Federal Reserve and the US Congress, or, over here, the Bank of England and Parliament.) The left’s social policies and stranglehold on the media and education have destroyed the family, and caused an explosion in welfare dependence, single-parent families and crime.

    I live out in the country near Lockerbie in Scotland (a tiny place that, unfortunately, is known to most of you through an example of the deeds of the evil terrorists our troops are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan). An unhappy marriage, his own, was summed up for me in the Scots language by a local, whose children are now grown. “Twae fowk bidin i the yin hoose” “Two people living in one house”. At least he hasn’t been ruined in a divorce court, so he is luckier than many others.

    Author ID: 10893 | 2/13/2008 03:51 PM CST | #113033
  78. “The Ledger” is real.  But the one positive entry that may delay “the end” forever is . . . the kids.

    The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    Indeed.

    My ledger has been in the red for about 5 years, not accounting for the kids.  It’s only a matter of time before I hit the bailout switch now that the last one is out and mostly self-sufficient.

    I predict this essay will attract as much incoming fire as the “Pussification” piece, and that’s not a Bad Thing.

    Author ID: 9587 | 2/13/2008 03:56 PM CST | #113036
  79. Shooter1001! I nearly married a woman who continually flunked the doorlock test 5 years into the relationship, even after I mentioned it. Her excuse was that she was used to remote locks. wtf? 5 years with me driving the same car?
    The other thing, is she only wanted to see movies she wanted to see, and reminded me for months afterwards of the one I had us view. I can’t use the word she used for, “being made to see a movie she didn’t want to see”, as it is too specific to a little known Charleton Heston film, but I never complained about getting “Merchant-Ivoried”.

    Author ID: 2303 | 2/13/2008 03:58 PM CST | #113038
  80. At the risk of appearing (and acting) a fool oh oh , I wanted to add my recession depleted aught two should the thread get locked. I’ve only scanned the material quckly but I feel it to be spot on.
    After two plus years with a woman, I got what one would describe as “the ultimatum” from her and I have to tell, the ledger just popped right of the subconcious and I said,
    “pass”.
    I believe it came as quite a surprise to her, but no worrries mate, she (and all women) was sitting on her groceries and found herself a new ATM (er man friend) in short order.

    Author ID: 9705 | 2/13/2008 04:02 PM CST | #113039
  81. I’m 55, never married and no kids.  I never quantified the ledger sheet as Kim has, but applied it in several relationships.  When I’m asked why I never married, I either say that I’ve never met the right woman (if I’m interested), or state that I’m just not good matrimonial material.  Some of us just don’t reform well.

    Author ID: 7528 | 2/13/2008 04:25 PM CST | #113042
  82. After seeing what my sisters put prospective boyfriends through I did that risk analysis thing way early and decided I didn’t need what was being offered nearly badly enough to put up with the included baggage.  Fast forward to mid 30’s when I met wife-unit, a three time divorcee’ with her own kids and her a coupla years older than moi.  Been married 17+ years now with no plans to change.  However, if we happened to no longer be married for whatever reason, I’m done.  Female acquaintances are fine but like grandkids it’s best that they go home at some point.

    Author ID: 6681 | 2/13/2008 04:32 PM CST | #113043
  83. You are a master of words, Kim.

    I really do not see the point in marriage, when the world is like it is today. I’ve only had one good relationship, and that was with my ex-fiance. All of the previous girlfriends I had treated me very poorly, cheated on me and so forth. I would have married the last girl, but she backed out because for her it was just about the sex(we agreed with her pastor that we would not have sex anymore until after the marriage ceremony, or he wouldn’t do it). Apparently that was the downfall according to her(well at least I know I’m good at it).

    But looking back on it, she would always get upset that she couldn’t make me mad, which was something she wanted to see. I used to have the patience of a saint, and have no idea why she would want that. I still love her in a way, but I couldn’t take her back after she left me when I needed her most. Now I have grown apathetic towards dating and romance, much to the displeasure of my parents(they want grandkids and won’t stop nagging me about it).

    I’m perfectly content with living the rest of my days alone, as I’ll still have friends.

    Author ID: 9852 | 2/13/2008 04:43 PM CST | #113045
  84. How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/13/2008 02:34 PM EDT | #112964

    TS, it’s not -about- men. Men, for good or ill, havent changed much in the last thousand years ( barring the rise of homo neutero, and homo metrosexualis ). To be blunt, women have created this mess, and men -cant- fix it. We’re not -allowed- to.

    In the relationships I’ve been in so far in my life, I’ve been as loyal as a dog, without exaggeration.

    and I’ve been beaten like one too.

    flip the question over. “How can we restore the social pressure to get american women to stop being such horrible bitches?”

    we -want- to marry-, we -want- to have children, we -want- to be attentive.

    WE -dont- want to be finacially screwed, jacked around, neutered, hounded by the courts for the amusement of women, or otherwise molested. the vast majority of men, simply want to work, get laid, and chase the kids around the yard on saturdays.

    Author ID: 9443 | 2/13/2008 05:17 PM CST | #113048
  85. They’re not refusing to grow up: this is the reaction to the constant belittlement and the infantilizing treatment they’ve been exposed to all their lives.

    I haven’t read the comments yet, but wanted to put this question out there:  What are we women who do not belittle and infantilize men to do?  The unmarried men in their mid-thirties and beyond I know are very bitter and automatically assume every woman is one of those belittling and infantilizing jerks; they rarely give one the opportunity to prove otherwise.

    Author ID: 10897 | 2/13/2008 05:29 PM CST | #113049
  86. Gotta agree with the “ledger” concept.  Many moons ago when I was dating a girl in Kansas, she kept wanting to marry me.  My response?  Nope.  Why?  Because it wasn’t worth it.  If our dating life was any indication of what our married life would have been like, then I wasn’t going to do it.

    FbL:  At that point, about the only thing you can do is hang around them enough for them to realize that you’re not one of “those” gals.  Sucks, doesn’t it?  Try not actually “dating” first.  Do some other activity that isn’t normally considered a date.  That’s how I met my wife, after years of swearing that I wasn’t going to ever get married.  She won me over eventually.

    Author ID: 7638 | 2/13/2008 05:42 PM CST | #113050
  87. OK, so there is agreement about the reasons.

    How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    - Tech Support asked.

    I hate to break it to you, but our society is doomed.  It will, at some point in the perhaps not-so-distant future, be replaced by something else.

    I married late, at 33, into “instant family.” My wife is once-divorced and had a teenage child.  We both agreed that “one was enough.” I had and still have no desire to have children of my own, even (or especially) though my grandchildren are (still!) living with us.

    The only thing that will get fertility rates up, IMHO, is a disastrous incident that significantly reduces our population, be it plague, massive warfare, an earth-shattering natural event or the like. 

    Our society is affluent.  Note that this was not so true just a couple of generations ago.  My grandparents busted their asses to feed, house, and clothe their children - and by and large, their broods were numerous.  Kids helped out around the home.  Kids could contribute to the family’s bottom line.  Kids were free farm labor, gardeners, cleaning crews.  My parents busted their asses so their children would have a better, more affluent life.  They succeeded, but they made a point of having fewer children too.  That helped with the “better, more affluent life” bit.  We, their children, don’t want to bust our asses like they did, and we (by and large) are more interested in spending our money on ourselves.  Add to that “women’s lib” and the rest, and now married couples have one, maybe two kids, if they have any at all, and many tend to treat them not as children, but as toys and fashion accessories.

    We’re selfish.  Raising children require selflessness and sacrifice. 

    Unless and until children become assets again rather than liabilities, THIS society isn’t going to be producing any bumper crops.  So THIS society is doomed.

    Author ID: 9327 | 2/13/2008 05:57 PM CST | #113051
  88. FbL, probably the BEST advice I can give is to do something BESIDES the “Basic Date”.  I know too many of my single male friends who WONT date for PRECISELY the reasons iterated above...they DONT like being put down, given a wallet biopsys and taken for a ride.  Some of my lady friends have ASKED me what is wrong with X-guy...and I’ve told them the bare, unvarnished truth.  Sometimes it STINKS...but for those who DONT hammer the guys immediately...I tell them DONT DATE...go DO something like a fair, walk in the park, fly kites, go skiing, go SHOOTING (taught one safe gun handling for JUST that purpose) or do ANYTHING ELSE BUT DATE.  heck...fix a house together - that worked for a ladyfriend whom i’ve known since we were both 3.  She is HAPPILY married now for 12 years to a neat guy.

    I’m not sure where I went wrong with my 25+ years in double yoke...but I’ve gotten to Kim’s stated balance sheet, and my tipping point is close.  I have one kid left dependent, when he goes off on his own, diploma in hand...if things havent changed substancially for the better, the ripcord gets pulled. 
    NOT that I’m NOT trying to fix things...in spite of her shortcomings (in my eyes), lack of financial SENSE, and a total disregard for some of the more pleasing things in a marriage...I do still care for the lady VERY deeply...but its wearing thin.  She doesnt SEE the problem with her behavior, treatment or stated comments...I should be doing “better” at most everything...including providing her with a lot of $$$ to blow while I’m off working OT to pay for the last spree.  NOT.  We wont go into the lack of attention paid to her physical self.  Lets just say that there is twice as much of her as there was at the altar...and i should be glad of it.  Sorry..if she made ANY effort to stay in shape...I’d take the difficult with the easy...but she doesnt...and wonders why I’m losing interest.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/13/2008 06:09 PM CST | #113054
  89. The good father will not leave while the kids are young enough to be scarred.  Almost no negative entries, alone or together, will outweigh the interests of the children.  A father’s duty.

    And the good wife/mother won’t cause the split either, in the same circumstances.  A mother’s duty, also.

    That’s what happened to my first marriage.  Wifey decided there weren’t enough fluffy bunnies and rivers of chocolate in her life, so she decided I had to go.  Took a long time to get over the bitterness, but I finally threw away the bag of marshmallows I kept in the car in case she ever caught fire.

    ( that’s a little black humor, for you folks that are aghast right now )

    Author ID: 897 | 2/13/2008 06:34 PM CST | #113059
  90. KBaker said: I hate to break it to you, but our society is doomed.  It will, at some point in the perhaps not-so-distant future, be replaced by something else.

    I married late, at 33, into “instant family.” My wife is once-divorced and had a teenage child.  We both agreed that “one was enough.” I had and still have no desire to have children of my own, even (or especially) though my grandchildren are (still!) living with us.

    The only thing that will get fertility rates up, IMHO, is a disastrous incident that significantly reduces our population, be it plague, massive warfare, an earth-shattering natural event or the like.

    I fear that you are right about what it will take to put things back in place.  In David Brin’s The Postman, he wrote that feminism and all that went with it was dead the day after TEOTWAWKI.

    Author ID: 1185 | 2/13/2008 06:38 PM CST | #113060
  91. woodswalker: 

    I’m not sure where I went wrong with my 25+ years in double yoke...but I’ve gotten to Kim’s stated balance sheet, and my tipping point is close.  I have one kid left dependent, when he goes off on his own, diploma in hand...if things havent changed substancially for the better, the ripcord gets pulled.

    You and I appear to be in about the same situation as far as kids, length of time “in yoke”, and state of our respective ledgers.  I don’t know for sure, of course, but I doubt you “did” anything wrong—and that’s the thrust of Kim’s post here.

    “Wag more, bark less”.  Yep, that sums it up pretty nicely.

    Author ID: 9587 | 2/13/2008 07:12 PM CST | #113061
  92. sewerdweller,

    we -want- to marry-, we -want- to have children, we -want- to be attentive

    How can you say that when someone posts this:

    Sorry..if she made ANY effort to stay in shape...I’d take the difficult with the easy...but she doesnt...and wonders why I’m losing interest.

    Far too many men don’t want wives.  They want home decor.  They think the pictures of women in Playboy aren’t air brushed (another reason why porn is bad--because it creates a distortion in men’s minds about what is real and what isn’t).

    Women get fat as they get older.  They lose muscle and skin tone.  That’s what “better or worse, sickness and health” are all about.

    Marriage IS a financial arrangement for women.  Men say and agree that sex is the motivator for them.  Well, financial security is what it is about for women.  Being the provider/protector, in every aspect, is what KEEPS a woman attracted to her husband.

    I’m not suggesting that women should behave like gold diggers or behave irresponsibly with money, but that’s what he brings to the party.

    Financial compatibility is just as important as chemistry and hobbies.

    If you don’t want to be the provider then you have to choose a mate differently.  You have to choose a woman who likes to work outside the home and has career ambitions, but that will put different strains on the relationship and be difficult for her when you have children--straining the marriage near the breaking point.

    Even women who like working and are ambitious before children, often experience a change in priorities once those babies come along.

    We’re facing these issues from a different perspective now… because we have a 20 year old daughter.  Men waste her time.  They date her and treat her like a girlfriend, and then she discovers they aren’t interested in her as a future wife.  They think it is OK to date a young woman and string her along.  It would be different if they’d stated that up front, but they don’t. 

    These men are cads.  They have no couth at all.  This is a young woman who does want marriage, who does want children, who wants to be the adoring wife and mother, who is skilled in managing a house, and who is still virtuous.

    But she doesn’t have a playboy centerfold body.  That, we’ll have to address with surgery because she’s going to be EXPENSIVE.  She’s MY daughter, after all, but she will provide a LOVELY home for her future (very lucky) husband.

    It was really hard to tell her the truth about that--that men are shallow and successful men will want their wife to be both a best friend, super mother, and a trophy to show off to their friends.

    If our sons behaved the way some of these guys have behaved they’d be beaten within an inch of their lives.  Our boys would never hear the end of it if they didn’t open a door for a woman, let alone waste a girl’s time that way.  They’ve been taught to respect women, as well as try to tell the good ones from the bad ones.

    It HAS changed.  It has changed in every conceivable way.  Parents used to arrange suitable marriages, and were more concerned about what kind of family the person came from than what the person looked like, because they knew that that was going to be the biggest factor in compatibility. 

    Unless a man is fabulously wealthy then he better get over having a trophy wife, or be willing to spend $$$$ on plastic surgery as she gets older to keep her that way, because nature will not be denied.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/13/2008 07:36 PM CST | #113065
  93. How do we fix it?

    The first step would be recognizing that the men aren’t the real problem.

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?

    You can’t. After the hell so many of our fellow men have been put through by mentally unstable, vindictive, unfaithful b****es who are presumed to be the virtuous party in court, there are no men left under 50 who will impose the slightest social penalty on a man who declines to risk financial and emotional rape.

    How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  If we don’t, our society is doomed.

    I’m sorry, your premise is wrong. The problem is not that men are disinclined to be attentive fathers. Of all the reasons women leave men, that is near the very bottom of the list.

    I know a man who is raising a child that is not his. He does not hold the mother’s unfaithfulness against the child, he loves the child, and he wants to do the right thing by the child. If he could ditch the mother without losing the child, he would do so in a heartbeat.

    .....

    If you want to fix the problem, a good step would be passing a law that explicitly states that if a marriage ends on account of infidelity, the responsible party loses all rights to any community property, does not get custody of the child, and will not receive any form of alimony or ‘maintenance’.

    Eliminate the financial incentive to get a divorce, and there will be fewer divorces. Right now, divorce is win-win for women- if they don’t get a great husband, they get half of his stuff, and possibly a monthly payment.

    Author ID: 353 | 2/13/2008 08:14 PM CST | #113067
  94. There we have it. The sacred circle is broken.
    Men behave the way they do because women behave the way they do.
    Women behave the way they do because men behave the way they do.
    Insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results.
    Fred Reed had an essay on a tangential subject once, and mentioned that the girl he liked at the time and he did not do “it” but neither felt exploited.
    The whole world is mad.

    Author ID: 2303 | 2/13/2008 09:52 PM CST | #113069
  95. How do we fix it?

    How can we restore the social pressure for men to marry and have children?  How do we restore the pressure to be attentive fathers?  - TS/IW

    Eliminate the financial incentive to get a divorce, and there will be fewer divorces. Right now, divorce is win-win for women- if they don’t get a great husband, they get half of his stuff, and possibly a monthly payment. - rosignol

    It’s none of the state’s business what men want to do, nor to compel them to be married and have children.
    It is in the state’s interest to make it easier to have a happy, healthy, and productive home, as opposed to more broken ones.

    To that end, the best you can hope for is to try to get things back close to an even kilter.

    Start with revoking “no fault” divorce laws.
    Marriage isn’t a game. Stop treating it like a round of golf, where you can quit after 3 or 4 holes if you’re just not feeling up to it. Get divorced for cause (abuse/abandonment/infidelity) and the guilty partner loses everything to the aggrieved partner - all property, kids, custody, support, the works.
    And throw in a mandatory $10,000 fine to each interloping 3rd party in cases of infidelity, also payable to the aggrieved party. Conspiracy to void a marriage contract should be treated like any other breach when there are financial losses. The second offense for homewrecking should be a mandatory 30 days in jail, and increase with subsequent offenses.

    Someone will shriek about “trapping” poor helpless women in a marriage. Simple enough answer: you can still get your “no fault” divorce. The initiating party simply agrees to forgo all spousal support in perpetuity, and the property gets divided by the status quo ante, and all property and debt acquired post-altar gets divided right down the middle.

    If there are children, the court assigns child support, and divides it in a strict 50/50 ratio. Both parties pay it to the court, and the custodial parent gets it back only after both sides have contributed fully and equally. Miss a payment, and you’re the deadbeat. Miss two, and custody reverts to the other parent (lacking custody, suitable property of yours gets seized). Fail to abide by shared custody and visitation agreements once, and you double your support payments for one month. Fail three times, and you lose custody in perpetuity, but retain all responsibilities for support. Beyond those penalties, the chain gang beckons, for either party.

    When both parties suddenly have a vested interest in both staying together in the first place, or continuing to share the load equitably regardless of a divorce, divorce will fail to be such an attractive option.

    And while we’re at it: cost for the first marriage license: $50.
    Fee for first divorce: $5000. Per party.
    Cost for your second marriage license: $500.
    Fee for your second divorce: $10,000.
    Cost for the third marriage license: $5000.
    And so on, up by one zero per marriage, and by $5,000 apiece per divorce.
    Marriage license fee refunded fully on the completion of your 25th anniversary.

    It should be hard to get into a marriage, and harder still to get out.

    Plan B
    And if that’s too unpalatable, then let’s make things truly fair: upon divorce, all parties walk away clean, and whoever wants the kids keeps them, on their own nickel, with no support required nor compelled by the state.

    If the former plan doesn’t do the trick, the latter will certainly make it in a woman’s interest to pick a partner with the character to stay in a marriage and be a good father before she starts giving up the goods to every Tom, Dick, and Harry she meets at a bar.

    I’d rather have society populated by two of the kids from that world, than any hundred from the current crop.

    BTW, bringing back the concept of a dowry wouldn’t go amiss either. Then neither party would feel they were putting in all the marbles, both would have a financial stake in things, and its refund, a la The Quiet Man, would be a quick and painless way to end troublesome unions.

    Author ID: 9097 | 2/13/2008 10:43 PM CST | #113072
  96. sewerdweller,

    How can you say that when someone posts this:

    Sorry..if she made ANY effort to stay in shape...I’d take the difficult with the easy...but she doesnt...and wonders why I’m losing interest.

    Hey, you take -any- group, and you’ll run into people who want style over substance. Me? I’ll take preformance over pretty 8 days a week. here’s a quick tip to weed with. ask them about, or look at, thier car. If they talk about how well it works, they’re about substance. If they talk about how it looks.... well you get the idea.

    Far too many men don’t want wives.  They want home decor.  They think the pictures of women in Playboy aren’t air brushed (another reason why porn is bad--because it creates a distortion in men’s minds about what is real and what isn’t). Women get fat as they get older.  They lose muscle and skin tone.  That’s what “better or worse, sickness and health” are all about.

    um.... Outo f all the reasons I’ve heard to not get married, “cuz women dont age purty” isnt on the list. It might -be- a reason for some, but it’s not one I’ve heard mentioned, or believe in.

    Marriage IS a financial arrangement for women.  Men say and agree that sex is the motivator for them.  Well, financial security is what it is about for women.  Being the provider/protector, in every aspect, is what KEEPS a woman attracted to her husband.

    I’m not suggesting that women should behave like gold diggers or behave irresponsibly with money, but that’s what he brings to the party.

    Financial compatibility is just as important as chemistry and hobbies.

    This is true. But if all a man brings to the party as you put it, is money, then what do women bring?

    We’re facing these issues from a different perspective now… because we have a 20 year old daughter.  Men waste her time.  They date her and treat her like a girlfriend, and then she discovers they aren’t interested in her as a future wife.  They think it is OK to date a young woman and string her along.  It would be different if they’d stated that up front, but they don’t. 

    You’re making an assumption here. Several actually.  You -assume- that the core of the problem is your daughter’s looks, and/or the shallowness of the men she meets. It could be as simple as they date her, and discover they do not wish to marry her, or discover that -they- are not ready. Or, it could be as you say. But You/I/We do not -know- this.

    These men are cads.  They have no couth at all.  This is a young woman who does want marriage, who does want children, who wants to be the adoring wife and mother, who is skilled in managing a house, and who is still virtuous.

    and if I was 15, hell -10- years younger, I’d move to texas and ask for an introduction.

    But she doesn’t have a playboy centerfold body.  That, we’ll have to address with surgery because she’s going to be EXPENSIVE.  She’s MY daughter, after all, but she will provide a LOVELY home for her future (very lucky) husband.

    I wouldn’t go the surgical modififcation route unless it -had- to be done. Some of that stuff can be pretty risky. Besides, being a bit of a ‘plain jane’ makes for a marvelous ‘jerk filter’. if the pictures I’ve glimpsed on this site -are- your daughter, she’s a lovely girl, as is.

    It was really hard to tell her the truth about that--that men are shallow and successful men will want their wife to be both a best friend, super mother, and a trophy to show off to their friends.

    -Some- men are shallow. -Some- women are shallow. To blanket -either- gender is a huge disservice.

    Unless a man is fabulously wealthy then he better get over having a trophy wife, or be willing to spend $$$$ on plastic surgery as she gets older to keep her that way, because nature will not be denied.

    It’s not about ‘getting a trophy’ these days, unless you party with donald trump and the like. It’s about not having everything you’ve earned yanked away, and being slammed into indentured servitude because “She wasn’t realizing her potential”. Men are avoiding marriage, and even cohabitation in -droves-, simply because they have no desire to “find a woman they hate, and buy her a house”.

    If I could find a woman that was -never- going to screw me over ( bad behavior on my part is fair game. ) I’d marry her, and I wouldn’t give a tinker’s damn if she looked like old roadkill and smelled like satan’s underpants.

    Author ID: 9443 | 2/13/2008 11:17 PM CST | #113073
  97. OK, Dr. Laura,

    Why are you ghost writing for Kim today?  wink

    Aesop..........................Home run, guy!!

    YOU DA MAN!!  cool smile

    Two thumbs up!!

    Author ID: 372 | 2/14/2008 12:18 AM CST | #113074
  98. Truer words have never been spoken.

    Fergus is right, the Fed & Congress are bleeding us dry.

    As for killing commies, hell yes it would fun!! And our duty as American Patriots. Berkeley is only a forty mile drive from here.........

    Author ID: 10597 | 2/14/2008 12:51 AM CST | #113075
  99. This topic opens up too many personal cans of worms for me, so I will try not to bore anyone with my comments… however, I will make a few comments:

    (1) I have been personally acquainted with several women who have treated men like crap, ranging from being garden-variety high-maintenance to grabbing the short hairs and refusing to let go.  However, as long as their looks held out, many of them found it easy to go through men like Kleenex.  One of them did it by acting helpless and stupid (she was quite a ball-buster in disguise).

    (2) I wouldn’t necessarily bet the farm that a foreign woman would _automatically_ be a better bet.  Men, I would implore you to look deeper than just how cute the woman looks; I know men are extremely visual, but better check out her behavior as well as her physical assets. 

    A friend of a friend married a South American woman who not only spent her way through his hard-earned nest egg, but also badmouthed the U.S., is paranoid and controlling about every moment of his time, has physically attacked him, and gawd knows what else.  He’s put her through school, and she’s ungrateful for everything, refusing to see how much he might have given up in the bargan.  She tries to keep him away from his friends; she controls his e-mail and his cell phone. 

    The _only_ reason he stays in the marriage is that they procreated a kid together, whom he loves.  Otherwise he’d have dumped her a long time ago.  He’s basically a nice man who doesn’t want to confront her (big fights).  He waited a long time to marry (late 40s/early 50s), but the younger woman he fell for turned out to be a real pain (literally).  His friends have told him to seek legal advice.  The poor guy will probably end up living in a double-wide when he’s retired.

    Where the happy medium is between woman as household drudge/servant and woman as ball-buster, and man as servant and man as owner of the woman, I don’t know.  How to get there, I cannot claim to be an expert.

    (3) I completely agree that women should not be able to get away with false accusations (rape, child abuse, etc.) against men.  Hold them accountable by all means.

    Author ID: 8254 | 2/14/2008 01:36 AM CST | #113076
  100. One more comment… I don’t have much sympathy for those women who are genuine gold-diggers or who require a man to make XX amount of dollars… but one reason why marriage for women is very much about financial security is because… TA DA!  Being a wife and a mother is a JOB! 

    And just like a man takes potential remuneration into account when he looks for a job, so does a woman take that into account when she looks for a potential job (er, a husband and family).

    Most women would prefer not to marry a dirt-poor guy.  Yes, here in the West we’re supposed to “love” each other, but financial aspects are a consideration too.  Unfortunately, “love” usually isn’t enough to live on.  I’ve never known a landlord, utility company, or grocery store which took “love” in payment for goods and services. 

    BTW, I’m speaking as a woman who has been in several relationships where the guy has made less money than I do (and I’m far from rich); and there have been days when I wish I’d paid more attention to the bottom line.  Men can be expensive to support too.  :>P

    Author ID: 8254 | 2/14/2008 01:45 AM CST | #113077
  101. In Western countries industrialization has brought wealth.  Life gets easy for a great many and they chafe against the old rules and think they no longer apply because life is different now.  They are usually scions of the middle and upper classes and float into positions of influence.  They are barbarians.  To paraphrase, they resent the priest, the soldier, and the policeman.  They are at first amusing, tolerated, and not taken as a danger.  They gravitate to positions and jobs were immaturity can be an asset, acting, politics, reporting, and teaching.  There their influence spreads like a slow plauge.  This has happened in a fashion in pre-industrial history amongts the upper classes but I think this phenomenon is approaching a crisis point.  I can’t predict when but people are starting to notice things like marriage has become messed up.  “Dan Quayle was right about Murphy Brown.”

    The only cure that I can see is a crisis......Perhaps a slow political revolt but I’m not hopeful on that.

    Author ID: 67 | 2/14/2008 01:45 AM CST | #113078
  102. on picking the right woman…

    Pay attention to her family; her parents, siblings and siblings spouses.  It’ll provide you a good indication of what you will be in for.

    (of course, Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife is the exception that proves the rule)

    Author ID: 7681 | 2/14/2008 05:04 AM CST | #113083
  103. Thank you Kim for a great “ah-ha!” moment for Us Males. And probably an “ah-ha… sob..sob...sob...” moment over on Adam’s rib side. Incidentally, there are two ways of interpreting the “sob” part and both are applicable to the female psyche!

    Author ID: 10617 | 2/14/2008 06:26 AM CST | #113088
  104. Seward,

    I don’t want to get into more detail than I have about Daughter, only to say that some were quite blatant about it.  One was quick to point out that he had a ‘permanent’ girlfriend, and daughter was just a fill in because his permanent one was going to college in another city.

    If a guy is telling a girl he “loves” her, then that has meaning. 

    Dating is like a job interview--both are trying each other out for a long term assignment.  If one decides they aren’t interested in the long term gig, then you EXIT the relationship--not tell them 6 mos later that you weren’t interested 6 months ago.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 06:46 AM CST | #113092
  105. Thank you, TS and pbmaltzman. I sympathize with a lot of the complaints here—sometimes I am rather saddened and disgusted with the way my sex behaves towards men—but the financial part of this eludes me.

    But if all a man brings to the party as you put it, is money, then what do women bring?

    Hopefully, that’s not all a man brings to the party. But it’s a large part of it, because if a woman is to care for her husband, her children, and her home, she needs to be financially supported—and that should answer your question, sewer. 

    There was a time when a man wouldn’t even consider courting a woman until he was financially capable of caring for a family. Since that is no longer the case, I don’t understand when or why it became distasteful for a woman to inquire in some fashion after a man’s capability to support her. How many of the men here would consider taking a job without first considering compensation and the company’s financial solvency? Likewise, it’s unreasonable to expect a woman to take the job of wife and mother--for life--without knowing what the compensation will be and whether it can be relied upon. Tact would suggest she not ask on the first date; but sooner is better, otherwise the two of you are wasting your time.

    Kim says that men can be very clinical about relationships. Well, women ought to be clinical, too. If I hadn’t been cold and rational about choosing a mate, I’d be alone or in relationship hell by now. The truth is, I didn’t love my husband when I married him. A couple of years before, after wasting my time dating incompatible men, I had made a list of attributes I wanted in a husband—some negotiable, some written in stone. When I met Sami, I compared him to the list, and it was a 98% match. He didn’t have two nickels to rub together at the time, as we were both students, but he had an unbelievable work ethic, so I was reasonably assured that he would be able to support us. But I married him in good faith, knowing that, barring infidelity or physical abuse, I was in this for life. Love came within six months, and now I can’t imagine life without my husband. I agree with TS on this—I don’t want to walk this earth one second without my husband.

    The point is, I let subjective things be my guide for 10 years looking for a mate, and it got me worse than nowhere. When I decided to be clinical about things, it worked. A woman absolutely must bring an element of the clinical to her choice—which includes being realistic about finances—if the partnership is to have any chance for success. For you men, there has to be a way to tell the difference between a gold-digger/princess and someone who is looking for reasonable compensation. If it’s the latter, don’t condemn her.

    Lastly, to the men here who are stuck in marriage hell but are sticking it out for the kids: what you are doing is nothing short of heroic. It will set your kids up for a much better adult life. My parents split when I was young, and 25 years later I still cry about it. When my folks divorced, I didn’t see my dad for years (his choice), and later when I went to live with him, I had to compete with his girlfriends—I became pretty jaded about men for a long time as a result, and it was only through enormous effort that I overcame it. My brother went through his own tribulations, and only through sheer luck ended up with a good wife. If you get nothing else out your current situation, know that you are preventing untold misery in your own children’s lives. And you are also in a much better position to influence them: raise your sons to expect good treatment from women, and raise your daughters to respect men.

    Author ID: 8184 | 2/14/2008 06:57 AM CST | #113096
  106. “But looking back on it, she would always get upset that she couldn’t make me mad, which was something she wanted to see. I used to have the patience of a saint, and have no idea why she would want that.”

    Because she knows if she can get you mad, she controls you.

    Author ID: 6518 | 2/14/2008 06:59 AM CST | #113097
  107. My daughter is a multi-degreed highly paid professional. She tells me that the dating scene today is almost a job search.
    ‘What school did you go to?’
    ‘Who do you work for?’
    ‘What’s your salary range’
    “Own your home?’
    “What’s your debt situation?’
    ‘What do your parents do?’

    Couple all that with ‘looks count’ and its a wonder anybody gets married at all.

    I suggested to her that she require Mr. Right to sign a pre-nup!

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/14/2008 07:06 AM CST | #113101
  108. Because she knows if she can get you mad, she controls you.

    Or she grew up in a household of shouters and thinks that you need that kind of drama in your live to demonstrate passion.

    Some people manufacture drama in their lives, because that is something they’re used to.

    Another reason to look carefully at the family.  If they fight and shout, THAT is how they will behave (unless lots of therapy is involved) because people replicate in their own marriages what they think marriage is.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 07:11 AM CST | #113103
  109. That is as it should be, Shooter.  That’s the first positive sign I’ve seen in this thread.

    Those are the questions parents would ask if searching for a mate for their kids.

    You’d ask about their politics, their goals in life, how they want to live, where they see themselves in 20, 30, or 40 years, right?  Well, all those questions are just as relevant.

    What if Kim had never wanted to travel?  What if he wanted to live in the wilderness instead of live in cities?  Our perfect marriage would have been a disaster because our goals/interests would not be compatible.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 07:28 AM CST | #113105
  110. Families are the glue of society. If you want to break up a society, break up the families.

    How do you fix it?
    1.) Make divorce harder. Getting a divorce should never have been as easy as we’ve made it.
    2.) Maybe introduce some education about marriage into the schools. Marriage has always been important in religions and treated with respect. When my wife and I decided to get married we visited with a pastor, who sat us down and talked to us about the commitment, the effort, the sacrifice, and the joys of what we were entering into. He also stated we were making a contract under God, and breaking that contract should never ever come lightly. Mature people work through problems and don’t cut and run at every little issue. Under a secular society, marriage doesn’t have the same respect, and is more than often viewed as an inconvenience.

    Seque into
    3.) Remove the state from the institute of marriage and put it back into the hands or religious institutes. I know this one won’t go over very well with athiests, but the important thing is getting the state out of the marriage business.

    4.) Good parents will raise good kids who will yearn to have a family like the one they grew up in. Part of good parenting is teaching the kids that people are individuals and should never be looked at as part of any group. Racism, sexism, any-ism is not seeing the individual, but seeing a class.

    5.) Creating awareness that what we see on TV or in the movies is fictional and doesn’t represent reality. Sex on the screen makes sex so attractive, hey there’s never any consequences. And double hey, EVERYBODY DOES IT SO SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG WITH YOU IF YOU DON’T. Infidelity is no big deal on the one-eyed monster. Hollywood through the glass teat would have us believe all marriages in the US are exactly like the marriages in tinsel town; devoid of love, commitment, and kids are a burden.

    Author ID: 8653 | 2/14/2008 07:32 AM CST | #113107
  111. We’re facing these issues from a different perspective now… because we have a 20 year old daughter.  Men waste her time.  They date her and treat her like a girlfriend, and then she discovers they aren’t interested in her as a future wife.  They think it is OK to date a young woman and string her along.  It would be different if they’d stated that up front, but they don’t.

    These men are cads.  They have no couth at all.  This is a young woman who does want marriage, who does want children, who wants to be the adoring wife and mother, who is skilled in managing a house, and who is still virtuous.

    But she doesn’t have a playboy centerfold body.  That, we’ll have to address with surgery because she’s going to be EXPENSIVE.  She’s MY daughter, after all, but she will provide a LOVELY home for her future (very lucky) husband.

    You could have been describing me 20 years ago.  Same exact thing....did what I could with the body I got, but you can only do so much with the genetics sometimes.

    I hope she hasn’t given up quite yet.  Guys, and yes, girls in their 20’s many times just aren’t worth it.  They don’t know what they want to do with their lives or who they want to become.  I had pretty much ever given up (was even in the process of starting an adoption from China), when at 37 I met a terrific guy, and ran off to Vegas.  We have the cutest little boy you ever did see, and we’re pretty happy.  I wouldn’t have changed a thing, even though the process of getting here seemed pretty pointless at times. 

    Plastic surgery isn’t gonna make the worthwhile ones suddenly appear.  I HAVE seen it create some freaky looking people, though....be extremely careful with your surgeon if you go that route, and know that even the best ones get some pretty weird results on occasion!

    -----------------------

    And to the men sticking it out for the kids:  Thanks.  My parents did that, I am certain of it.  They probably would have gotten divorced if my mother hadn’t died from cancer when my brother was 17.  They had virtually nothing in common and I still don’t know why they ever got together in the first place.

    I don’t give a rat’s ass what some studies say about the children of divorce....I know that my friends whose parents split up have had harder times keeping a relationship together than the ones whose parents stayed together, for whatever reason.  Most of them missed out on having a good relationship with their fathers, which is probably the saddest thing of all.  I am forever grateful I don’t have a “dad sized” hole in my heart like they do.

    Author ID: 10899 | 2/14/2008 07:36 AM CST | #113108
  112. Maddogg,
    She wanted to make you mad! She wanted to know that she had some degree of control over your emotions. Manipulative. Ask me how I know.

    Author ID: 946 | 2/14/2008 07:38 AM CST | #113109
  113. Worst thing I could have done would have been to stay married to my kid’s abusive sire.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 07:42 AM CST | #113110
  114. Please understand, I am not saying that you should stay married to someone who is abusive, addicted to drugs and/or alcohol, or who is out sleeping with half the town.  None of my friends’ parents split up for those reasons.  They “didn’t feel fulfilled”, “weren’t happy” or had some other variation on that theme.

    You grow up hearing that was the reason your folks split up, and you get the message that it’s better to bail than work through a problem that could possibly be solved. 

    If you have one of the triple A’s (abuse, addiction or adultery), get the hell out, by all means!  But if not, and there are little kids, maybe you should reconsider.  That’s all I’m saying.

    Author ID: 10899 | 2/14/2008 07:57 AM CST | #113115
  115. “Women get fat as they get older.  They lose muscle and skin tone.  That’s what “better or worse, sickness and health” are all about.”

    Re: post #92, Imaginary wife:

    I don’t buy it. My soon-to-be-60-year-old wife has the body of a 30-year-old and is far sexier than she was when I first met her at 20. No plastic surgery or any help whatsoever. And this is definitely not just MY perspective. Many of her friends look pretty good too. It CAN be done. We just push each other. At 62, I’ll compare stomachs and muscle tone with anyone close to my age. How do we do it? Basic stuff. Exercise (lots of golf for me) and sensible eating. No big deal. A lot of women have no trouble losing that marriage flab when they get divorced and start looking for a new guy. And a lot of chubby married women surround themselves with chubby friends to delude each other (and their husbands) that this is inevitable. Try harder. Your mileage may differ.

    Author ID: 10900 | 2/14/2008 08:04 AM CST | #113116
  116. Abuse is a lot more common than folks realize.  It isn’t always the husband who is abusive, but it is more likely that a man will be physically abusive than a woman.  She is more likely to be emotionally abusive.

    Folks don’t necessarily know they are abusive.  If they did, they’d stop it/seek therapy to fix it. They’re just replicating the marriage their parents had--thinking that it is the model for what marriage is.... so it IS important to get kids out of those situations, even if it “breaks their hearts” for a time, because the relationship you have IS the relationship your kids are going to model.

    If you don’t want your children to have the relationship you have, then end it.  That’s how I found the courage to end mine, even with the threats of violence if I tried it, because I didn’t want my daughter to think it was OK for a woman to be treated that way, and I certainly didn’t want my baby boy to model that behavior when he got married.

    I’m not suggesting that an otherwise happy and stable couple should divorce because they have an occasional quarrel.  But if all they do is quarrel and they have no love/respect for each other, that isn’t a marriage.  It is a housing arrangement.

    My solution, to at least minimize incompatible matches, would be to require that engagements last at least 2 years… far too many people confuse infatuation with love.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 08:10 AM CST | #113119
  117. Melk,

    Your wife is genetically blessed, which segment constitutes about 2% of the total population.

    0 Author ID: 1 | 2/14/2008 08:17 AM CST | #113120
  118. Kim:

    Het jy my skoonma gesien?

    Author ID: 10900 | 2/14/2008 08:20 AM CST | #113121
  119. Melk,

    The plural of anecdote is not data.  The fact that you select people in your social circle who care about that is ALSO anecdotal.  It is the flip of what you accuse others of doing.

    Here is Ruben’s Venus, representing the ideal female form.  Fads and fashions change, including how fat a woman should be to be attractive.  Unfortunately, nature doesn’t always get the memo when the style changes:

    image

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 08:22 AM CST | #113122
  120. TS,

    you wrote:

    Sorry..if she made ANY effort to stay in shape...I’d take the difficult with the easy...but she doesnt...and wonders why I’m losing interest.

    Far too many men don’t want wives.  They want home decor.  They think the pictures of women in Playboy aren’t air brushed (another reason why porn is bad--because it creates a distortion in men’s minds about what is real and what isn’t).

    Women get fat as they get older.  They lose muscle and skin tone.  That’s what “better or worse, sickness and health” are all about.

    As to the comment about wanting a trophy wife....NOT SO...I want one who can walk across the living room w/o wheezing, who can and will walk to the park (2 blocks) with me.  I want one whose idea of strenuous exercise is something past vacuuming and whose ideal entertainment is not playing clicky games on the computer for 5+ hours a day. I want one who MIGHT be healthy enough to be around to enjoy our grandkids… THAT is what is bugging me.  I KNOW we all age...trust me on this one.  I also work daily to ensure that I’ll be HEALTHY enough to enjoy my grandkids.  I walk stairs at work, walk instead of drive 2 blocks.

    So I’ll take issue with that part of your statement.  Do not tar us all with the same brush.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/14/2008 08:23 AM CST | #113124
  121. TS,

    No one would seriously argue that a woman should stay with an abusive man. The effects of that kind of situation on children and the wife are worse than divorce.

    But in how many cases do women leave perfectly adequate men, only because the women are selfish or have unrealistic expectations? Or, to be frank, the men are too weak-willed to demand respect? That was certainly the case in my family. My parents’ marriage could have been saved, but they were too short-sighted, too selfish, and too weak to find some kind of workable solution. At minimum they could have waited until my bro and I were 18. At best, I think they could have stayed together forever if they both would have grown the hell up (my beloved mother in particular, God rest her soul).

    My mom was a heck of a homemaker, and she loved it, but she didn’t understand the first thing about being a wife. My dad realizes now that he probably could have saved the marriage by sticking up for himself instead of avoiding the momentary agony of challenging her. My husband knows better. I respect him, because he stands up to me. On a couple of occasions, he packed his bags and threatened to leave because I was treating him badly—I didn’t realize the extent of it until he was willing to walk out. I changed. (We don’t have kids yet, so admittedly the stakes aren’t as high. A man ought to do this before he makes children with his wife.)

    Author ID: 8184 | 2/14/2008 08:23 AM CST | #113125
  122. Imaginary wife:

    I’m not doing a scientific paper. I’m just suggesting that it can be done. People in their 60s and 70s can run marathons and climb Everest. Whether they choose to do so is up to them.

    Author ID: 10900 | 2/14/2008 08:25 AM CST | #113126
  123. It is GENETIC, Melk.  No, not everyone can do that.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 08:28 AM CST | #113128
  124. So did you tell her that, Woods?  Do you tell her that and provide the clinical help she’d need to do that?  Including, but not limited to, bariatric surgery to intervene on nature’s doing?

    Do you tell her that you love her and ARE physically attracted to her, regardless?  That it is her longevity and ONLY that that you are concerned about?

    Do you tell her she’s beautiful and adore her and do you find her beautiful and adore her?

    If not, it’s BS.

    Granted, some women WILL go the route of becoming unattractive as a way to repel their husbands physically… but what does that say about the health of that relationship?  If she’s going to all that trouble and sacrifice to keep him away, there’s a lot more going on that is unhealthy in that relationship.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 08:35 AM CST | #113130
  125. Sorry… I was drooling over the Rubens Venus, and forgot what I was going to say.

    0 Author ID: 1 | 2/14/2008 08:35 AM CST | #113131
  126. I’m getting a bit tired of this notion that unmarried men are in “arrested adolescence.” What about unmarried women? Could someone tell me what is NOT adolescent about recreational clothes shopping, going to dance clubs with your girlfriends, and having a phone glued to your ear 24/7?

    Author ID: 1256 | 2/14/2008 08:45 AM CST | #113132
  127. That is as it should be, Shooter.  That’s the first positive sign I’ve seen in this thread.

    Those are the questions parents would ask if searching for a mate for their kids.

    You’d ask about their politics, their goals in life, how they want to live, where they see themselves in 20, 30, or 40 years, right?  Well, all those questions are just as relevant.

    What if Kim had never wanted to travel?  What if he wanted to live in the wilderness instead of live in cities?  Our perfect marriage would have been a disaster because our goals/interests would not be compatible.
    Tech Spt/Imaginary Wife | 2/14/2008 11:28 AM EDT | #113105

    This is what ‘courtship’ (man, am I an old fart or what?) is all about. To learn what to expect from a potential mate. Social class, upbringing, culture are so important once the thrill of big tits and six-pack abs are gone. These social differences can make it hard for two people to be happy together. Not impossible, but awfully tough. A girl with a strong religious blue collar background married to a Kennedy or to a guy from a broken trailer park home is going to find it pretty rough going in a year or so.
    Courtship is the time to find out about addictions, abuse and adulterers. The signs are there and one has to be pretty stupid not to see them. People change but not that much. I suspect that a church going, hymn singing guy won’t be slippin’ $1 bills into any g-strings too soon.
    There’s a lot of truth to the saying ‘see your wife, see her mother’. Not only in appearance either! Same for the male. If his father beats the shit of his wife & kids all the time, guess what?

    I dated this girl a long time ago, in my youth.  She was real pretty and my friends commented all the time ‘what a body on that broad’.
    It was getting real serious. I suppose she figured she had her man. That’s when she started getting domineering and telling me what to do. That took one day! Bing! Gone! Over! Fuggedaboutit!

    I have no answer to the 50% marriage breakup problem except that perhaps better choice up front can avoid disasters later on.

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/14/2008 08:47 AM CST | #113133
  128. Another reason to look carefully at the family.  If they fight and shout, THAT is how they will behave (unless lots of therapy is involved) because people replicate in their own marriages what they think marriage is.

    This is true far too often, but there are exceptions. You are not an animal either repeating by rote what you were taught growing up, or simply acting out various instincts. (Or at least, you don’t have to be.)

    You have control over yourself and your life. With a little work and a little communication, people can have the marriage they *want*, not the marriage they watched growing up.

    Author ID: 362 | 2/14/2008 08:53 AM CST | #113134
  129. 50% of marriages break up, but that includes serial marrieds.  50% of all married people do not get divorced.  50% of all marriages fail, but not 50% of all people get divorced.

    10 couples:

    6 stay married = 3 marriages (no divorces, 3 successful, 12 successful people)
    3 get married twice = 6 marriages (3 divorces, 3 successful, 6 successful people)
    1 get married 4 times and divorce all = 4 marriages (4 divorces, 0 successful)

    That’s 13 marriages.  7 Divorces.  18 successfully married people. 

    That’s the 50% divorce rate stat (13 marriages/7 divorces).

    When you remove the outlier (the serial marrieds who fail every time), the remaining people have happy marriages.

    More people are still staying married and never get divorced than those who get divorced.  75% of married people stay married.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 08:58 AM CST | #113135
  130. Once I passed my mid-thirties, I had to exercise an hour a day and eat like a bird if I wanted to just maintain my weight. It can be done, it’s just not fun. Genetics is a very small part of it - it still comes down to the physics of fuel in minus fuel expended. Unfortunately for me, I have a slow metabolism. That means I have to work harder, eat less and can’t enjoy the yummier foods. I’m not going to throw my hands in the air and say, “Hey, that’s just the way I am”, so I don’t feel the least bit guilty about giving my wife a head’s up when her ass starts getting fat. That’s hardly the same as looking for “air-brushed Playboy perfection.”

    Author ID: 1256 | 2/14/2008 09:02 AM CST | #113136
  131. But if all they do is quarrel and they have no love/respect for each other, that isn’t a marriage.  It is a housing arrangement.

    True.  That’s pretty much what my parents’ marriage looked like to me.  For a while, I was the human intercom system....Mom would tell me a message to relay to Dad, and I would report his answer back to her, even though they were just a room apart.  I heard from my mom one too many times about how she would have left him a long time ago if she could only have figured out how to make sure he walked away with nothing and she could spirit us off to Europe so he would never see us again. 

    But to say that I or my brother was doomed to repeat it is false.  It’s not like inheriting blue eyes or a blood type....you DO have a choice in the matter of how you conduct your own marriage.  If we were all doomed to repeat what our parents did, there would be little if any hope for most of us in my generation.

    Me and my brother both have marriages that are light years away from what our parents’ marriage was.  It hasn’t been easy for either of us (my brother has a severely handicapped daughter, and the stress of that alone could bring the best marriage to the breaking point at times).  In a weird way, seeing what they went through has allowed us to step back and realize what we are doing to ourselves and the ones we love before it gets to the point of no return. 

    Again, I don’t know why they stayed together.  Maybe religion played a part.  I don’t know.  But I do know that if my mother filed today, she probably could have gotten her wish of getting everything, plus cutting off our relationship with our dad, or pretty close to it.  It’s been over twenty years since their marriage ended, and I’ll never be convinced that my dad did anything horrible enough to deserve that.  And I would have that “dad sized” hole in my heart, and so would my brother.

    Author ID: 10899 | 2/14/2008 09:05 AM CST | #113137
  132. For those who think the “solution” would be to make marriage and/or divorce more difficult, sorry, it won’t work. 

    I consider myself relatively “young” at 46, but even in my life I have seen cohabitation go from being shameful (and even illegal in some states, although the law was rarely enforced) to being racy and exciting, to its current status today of being a social norm among most Americans. 

    Remember that until relatively recently in this country (say, WWII), having sex outside of marriage was not only considered immoral, it was a crime in many places.  Adultery and sodomy were crimes almost everywhere, and yes, people were prosecuted for these crimes.  Sodomy laws stayed on the books until this century (and note that both sodomy and adultery are still crimes under the UCMJ.)

    If you make marriage more difficult you will simply have more people cohabitating. 

    This is a good thing?  Ditto with making divorce more costly or difficult.  If you do, people will simply move out and move in with their paramour without the formal filing.  That will make things much more difficult, not less, especially for the children. 

    Honestly, I don’t know if it’s possible to put this genie back in the bottle.  I haven’t heard anyone seriously calling for laws against sodomy or adultery, much less fornication.  And were such laws to be passed they would certainly be invalidated by our courts.

    Author ID: 7544 | 2/14/2008 09:10 AM CST | #113139
  133. Attraction is not a choice nor is it rational.

    We don’t really have a say in who we are attracted to. It comes from deep within, and IMHO, is primordially encoded in our genetics. Just like the woman who SHOULD rationally be attracted to a “nice” guy who will always “treat her right” and provide for her, and who invariably goes for the “bad boy” (have a sister who made that choice), men, who SHOULD go for a nice girl who may not be the Venus de Milo but treats him right, invariably goes for the wrong kind of woman.

    Perhaps it is time for society to allow men to be men and women to be women and tell the government to GET OUT…

    Author ID: 7763 | 2/14/2008 09:10 AM CST | #113140
  134. This is true far too often, but there are exceptions. You are not an animal either repeating by rote what you were taught growing up, or simply acting out various instincts. (Or at least, you don’t have to be.)

    Well, yes and no.  We are animals repeating by rote much of what we learned/witnessed.  This is why abuse runs in families and is a perpetual cycle until someone CHALLENGES that cycle.  You’re right.  You don’t have to repeat it, but it takes work and effort to recognize that you are passing the torch and stop doing it.

    That only works when people know they were in an abusive home.  Some folks do not know it, and get quite upset when you suggest otherwise.

    “It is what my parents did and I turned out OK.”

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 09:21 AM CST | #113143
  135. It’s the women, stupid. They’ve changed. Men are simple creatures who merely cannot handle being overly controlled and nagged, for one reason becuase, unlike women, our anciently programmed adrenaline levels don’t quickly level off after a fight.

    Notice the consistent tone of the comments here:

    “my patience for some of the bullshit games women play”
    “a screamer”
    “complain endlessly”
    “scheduling all of my off time to her liking”
    “modern western women in general has attitudes that make marriage very difficult”
    “Women have unrealistic expctations of marriage”
    “Bitter, cranky… “Conversation” consists of an unending litany of all the ways in which everything in her life—particularly me—aren’t meeting her expectations.”
    “just sits there like a f’n princess”
    “mentally unstable, vindictive, unfaithful b****es”

    I’ll add “PAPD” meaning “Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder” which involves a honeymoon phase followed by a very underhanded attempt to gain control over your mate by exposing them to a “death by 1000 cuts” strategy that they can’t even figure out is happening, and so at least at first, until it’s just too much to take, they blame fights on themselves!

    Basically its an equation:
    Regular good SEX (so we can get our minds off it) must be there = +1.
    The woman shows and actively demonstrates PRIDE in the man = +1
    The woman shows and actively demonstrates DISDAIN or dismissiveness towards the men = -3 to -10 depending on how cute the girl is or how jaded or rich the guy is.

    Modern women are very hard to find in the USA who add up to something positive. I also notice in women a cold-as-ice lack of loyalty, meaning readiness to jump ship if a new rich guy winks at her.

    Chore roles haven’t much changed. Guy takes out heavy garbage, does rennovations with power tools, and mows lawn. Woman does dishes, laundry, and decorates. Financial planning and meal preparation depend on negotiation, many a man being a proud chef, many a modern woman have never used a pan.

    One of the problems that plaque marriage is that a shift occurs vs. just dating. One or both partners infantalizes themself and acts like a baby, expecting his or her needs to be taken care of through a process of mind-reading by their partner, just like when they were a baby, and they also become extremely selfish. The greater equality of women as “partners” instead of “housewives” makes this more likely, especially since housework is streamlined by power tools and power washers, so there’s also more time for personality disorders to create fights, eventually becoming fights about fights, so every minor bump in the road becomes a big row.

    Much of *this* problem is how women are constantly exposed to Vogue magazine images of worshipful men surrounding them as they merely strike an “unconcerned haughty pose.” Most girls are ‘Vogue’ girls (despite that magazine’s average readership having an income of only $35K). Then there are ‘Cosmo’ girls, but they tend to be quite manipulative marriage hunters who you cannot know who they really are. Finally there are ‘New Yorker’ girls. Those are the ones I look for. They are easy to find, for on park benches, subways, and in coffee shops they are literally reading that magazine.

    Author ID: 10901 | 2/14/2008 09:42 AM CST | #113146
  136. Sam Adams,

    I, like every other married person, like to bitch about my spouse.

    Good grief, dude, speak for yourself!  Even among those who do have something to bitch about--and I’m not in that category, thankfully (and no, dear, I didn’t put that in just in case you read this!)--there are quite a few who are too honorable to do any actual bitching, much less enjoy it.

    Author ID: 165 | 2/14/2008 09:44 AM CST | #113147
  137. It’s the women, stupid. They’ve changed. Men are simple creatures who merely cannot handle being overly controlled and nagged, for one reason becuase, unlike women, our anciently programmed adrenaline levels don’t quickly level off after a fight.

    Notice the consistent tone of the comments here:

    “my patience for some of the bullshit games women play”
    “a screamer”
    “complain endlessly”
    “scheduling all of my off time to her liking”
    “modern western women in general has attitudes that make marriage very difficult”
    “Women have unrealistic expctations of marriage”
    “Bitter, cranky… “Conversation” consists of an unending litany of all the ways in which everything in her life—particularly me—aren’t meeting her expectations.”
    “just sits there like a f’n princess”
    “mentally unstable, vindictive, unfaithful b****es”

    I’ll add “PAPD” meaning “Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder” which involves a honeymoon phase followed by a very underhanded attempt to gain control over your mate by exposing them to a “death by 1000 cuts” strategy that they can’t even figure out is happening, and so at least at first, until it’s just too much to take, they blame fights on themselves!

    Basically its an equation:
    Regular good SEX (so we can get our minds off it) must be there = +1.
    The woman shows and actively demonstrates PRIDE in the man = +1
    The woman shows and actively demonstrates DISDAIN or dismissiveness towards the men = -3 to -10 depending on how cute the girl is or how jaded or rich the guy is.

    Modern women are very hard to find in the USA who add up to something positive. I also notice in women a cold-as-ice lack of loyalty, meaning readiness to jump ship if a new rich guy winks at her.

    Chore roles haven’t much changed. Guy takes out heavy garbage, does rennovations with power tools, and mows lawn. Woman does dishes, laundry, and decorates. Financial planning and meal preparation depend on negotiation, many a man being a proud chef, many a modern woman have never used a pan.

    One of the problems that plaque marriage is that a shift occurs vs. just dating. One or both partners infantalizes themself and acts like a baby, expecting his or her needs to be taken care of through a process of mind-reading by their partner, just like when they were a baby, and they also become extremely selfish. The greater equality of women as “partners” instead of “housewives” makes this more likely, especially since housework is streamlined by power tools and power washers, so there’s also more time for personality disorders to create fights, eventually becoming fights about fights, so every minor bump in the road becomes a big row.

    Much of *this* problem is how women are constantly exposed to Vogue magazine images of worshipful men surrounding them as they merely strike an “unconcerned haughty pose.” Most girls are ‘Vogue’ girls (despite that magazine’s average readership having an income of only $35K). Then there are ‘Cosmo’ girls, but they tend to be quite manipulative marriage hunters who you cannot know who they really are. Finally there are ‘New Yorker’ girls. Those are the ones I look for. They are easy to find, for on park benches, subways, and in coffee shops they are literally reading that magazine.

    Another fact, is that men in general have been reading too much of their own magazines, which tells them lies about how to attract women. Flashing money around isn’t how no matter how badly their advertisers want you to believe that. It’s being masculine as hell and NOT being afraid of showing sexual and romantic attraction towards a girl, as soon as you meet her, for first impressions count for everything

    Author ID: 10901 | 2/14/2008 09:58 AM CST | #113149
  138. . Thus, part of “not being able to find” cool women has to do with men having forgotten how to be the chosers instead of chosen ones.

    Author ID: 10901 | 2/14/2008 10:01 AM CST | #113150
  139. [Repeat post deleted.]

    Author ID: 10901 | 2/14/2008 10:03 AM CST | #113151
  140. thankfully (and no, dear, I didn’t put that in just in case you read this!)

    Kim, too, has much to bitch about, but thank my lucky stars, he respects the sanctity of the privacy of marriage to share it with ANYONE.

    What happens in Vegas marriage, STAYS in Vegas marriage.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 10:51 AM CST | #113160
  141. TS- in reards to the behavior of the men your daughter ran into, I’m not sure what to say.

    Other than holy crap! That’s just wrong.

    Author ID: 9443 | 2/14/2008 11:28 AM CST | #113163
  142. I think you start to begin to fix the problem of men “wanting” to get married in the same way you fix a lot of the other problems in our society - by getting the government the hell out of it.

    For the record - I have been wary of marriage for a good 25 years now - since I spent a good many hours in the university libraries reading feminist literature - and came to realize how bad a deal a man would get in a society where feminist ideals had taken over. While I can’t say I know anybody who has personally been raked over the coals in the marriage/divorce process - I have heard more than enough horror stories second hand to know to watch my ass very carefully and look after myself.

    My girlfriend of 12 years has been pushing the marriage thing lately - and I am having a hard time coming up with a reason why I would want to. She gets angry and accuses me of wanting to leave her for a younger woman - I tell her: if I was to leave you it would be for nobody but myself. I was single for a good long time - I did it before - I can do it again. And I didn’t have any women in my life then, so I know I could do it again. Like a number of the previous respondents have said: I know how to fix my car, make my own food, do my own laundry, mow the lawn, etc. You had better be offering me something more than that - and saying “companionship” isn’t a viable answer. I can get companionship from a dog or a cat. I am not afraid of being alone. It may be depressing at times - but so is being with somebody who is making your life miserable.

    I think to start to fix the problem - women need to be reminded that they can’t necessarily do without men. Unfortunately our socialistic society has made it entirely too easy for women to survive without men. I believe Kim talked about this a while back when he referenced a John Lott article about how giving voting rights to women - has led to big govt. The fact of the matter is I go to work every day - and my livelihood gets taken from me - to support women. Women with illegitimate children, women who owe their jobs to hiring standards and quotas, women who get divorced - and use the legal system to extort money from whichever sucker got caught up in their trap, women who constantly carp for more govt. regulation of this and that. The latin world has the concept of masculine and feminine in their language - we here in this country used to have a much more “masculine” society. Going off and doing dangerous things used to be encouraged - now we live in a nanny state where every little thing we do is watched over and legally monitored for us. We are like henpecked children - this is a “feminized” society. Women have subsituted institutions for what men used to provide. The problem is that men still provide it - but the effect has been muted. So women no longer fully realize who it is that makes the world safe for them. Men do realize this - and are becoming increasingly pissed off about it.

    Author ID: 9485 | 2/14/2008 12:27 PM CST | #113170
  143. TS,

    I’ve offered, talked...explained tried to understand that she doesnt WANT to change...with no stated reason.  I dont know what the answer is.

    Yes we have other issues that I’m not going to air out in public...all couples have some.  THOSE issues are still in work as far as I’m concerned and some, if small, progress is being make...so its still in work, OK.

    And to answer your questions...medical and otherwise, YES I have and do.  She is after all the woman I married, for better , worse and all that, the mother of my children and my partner in this life.

    I do bitch, there are things that bother me...some deeply and yes I’ve thought things through. 

    Back to the point of Kim’s article.  Men are not perfect...but neither are the women...and there are some specific behaviors that drive men off faster than a ground glass sandwich.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/14/2008 12:35 PM CST | #113171
  144. Calsdad,

    Only from my perspective… not asking questions about your situation… and don’t want to know…

    If you have no intention of marrying a woman then TELL HER THAT… so she is free to pursue a relationship with a man who does want marriage.

    Personally, I think marriage is important and no pseudo-marriage relationships count, but if people have decided they don’t EVER want to marry, then they need to disclose that, CLEARLY, and make it plain that there is no chance of it ever changing.

    If the person decides to move on, just don’t fall for someone else 3 months later and propose.  You will destroy the other person by doing that, and that’s not right either.

    HONESTY matters.

    0 Author ID: 2 | 2/14/2008 12:55 PM CST | #113172
  145. Years ago women would take care to protect their marriage. They would usually tolerate a lot more before causing a breakup. Without a husband a woman would have had a difficult time especially with children. The relationship may not have been joyous but it stood up.

    Nowadays with all their rights and protections and less fear of destitution being alone, women have much less fear of divorce. So, if they feel unfulfilled or bored or simply want more/better sex, off they go, kids and all. With a quick stop in court of course for the $$$.

    Why would a man get married these days? Not for sex for sure. It abounds. I don’t care who you are! Adonis, old, fat, ugly whatever, there’s somebody not too far who wants to join you, for a while at least. No commitments, no promises of ‘forever’. She gets tired of you, she takes her CDs and she’s gone! Likewise for you.
    Companionship? You want a friend? Woof! Woof! They give em’ away. Big, small and they come in colors as well. Even the bitches don’t bitch! I’m an only child! While I like companionship as well as anyone I can be by myself for days and not care a wit.
    Cooking, cleaning, vacuuming? C’mon how hard can that be? Guys that repair jet engines, design & program computer systems, do brain surgery and know every play the Giants ran in the SB can’t get a dishwasher going?

    Kids? Sure, we all want to pass down our genes. See our sons’ game winning passes and tackles. But the parental urge is a lot stronger in women. They have that clock. Tick Tock Tick Tock. They say they can get by without us? Use a sperm bank. OK, fine, let ‘em. Let’s see how far that gets.

    After a generation of that crap, maybe things’ll change a bit. Some societal changes will happen that will put men and women back in their proper places. Maybe not. Here bitchy bitchy....

    Author ID: 9349 | 2/14/2008 01:12 PM CST | #113173
  146. Congratulations on the Insta-link !  Hope the server stays up.

    Author ID: 8050 | 2/14/2008 01:25 PM CST | #113176
  147. The gist of this whole conversation is that Feminism ruined the American female, which alienated the American male and screwed up the American family, and that prior to Feminism rearing its ugly head everything between men and women was hunky-dory.  Not so.

    “Mr. History Person” will now show you part of a poem written in 1897 by a guy named Kipling and entitled, “The Vampire”, which is a desperately sad commentary upon love and marriage in the Victorian Age:

    “A fool there was and he made his prayer
    (Even as you or I!)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair,
    (We called her the woman who did not care),
    But the fool he called her his lady fair--
    (Even as you or I!)

    Oh, the years we waste and the tears we waste,
    And the work of our head and hand
    Belong to the woman who did not know
    (And now we know that she never could know)
    And did not understand!”

    ...It goes on, but you get the main idea of it. 

    If we had transcripts of the emails exchanged on this subject written by guys in Ancient Greece the content would probably be the same.  Likewise if we found a copy of an ancient Roman “Cosmo” from the Empire period it would have the same two main sections:  1.  All men are bastards, and 2. How to get one to marry you.

    It’ll never end.  Can we get back to guns and pin-up girls now?  Please?

    How about that new Barrett 6.8mm replacement upper reciever for the M-16, huh?  Think the Army Ordnance types are smart enough to adopt it?

    Author ID: 9733 | 2/14/2008 02:07 PM CST | #113178
  148. I have to add this - after reading thru some more of the posts.

    Modern day women seem to be hell bent on proving why women were held down for so long. While there are many good women out there - after reading the responses from men who have had to go to hell and back to get their lives, sanity - and children back. It makes me wonder if those who came before us didn’t know something that our so called “progressive” and “modern” society has forgotten - maybe women need to be held back for their own good.

    I am just playing devil’s advocate here - and hoping that this is not actually true.

    Author ID: 9485 | 2/14/2008 02:34 PM CST | #113183
  149. The latin world has the concept of masculine and feminine in their language - we here in this country used to have a much more “masculine” society. Going off and doing dangerous things used to be encouraged - now we live in a nanny state where every little thing we do is watched over and legally monitored for us. We are like henpecked children - this is a “feminized” society.

    There’s an essay floating around somewhere on the intarwebs called “the Pussification of the Western Male” that goes into some depth on the matter. You may want to dig it up.  wink

    ----

    How about that new Barrett 6.8mm replacement upper reciever for the M-16, huh?  Think the Army Ordnance types are smart enough to adopt it?

    Maybe for the SOCOM guys. General issue? Probably not, unless Barrett is willing to subcontract the manufacturing to outfits with better Congressional connections.

    Still, it would be a step up from the varmint round.

    Author ID: 353 | 2/14/2008 03:05 PM CST | #113188
  150. Calsdad,
    Only from my perspective… not asking questions about your situation… and don’t want to know…
    If you have no intention of marrying a woman then TELL HER THAT… so she is free to pursue a relationship with a man who does want marriage.
    Personally, I think marriage is important and no pseudo-marriage relationships count, but if people have decided they don’t EVER want to marry, then they need to disclose that, CLEARLY, and make it plain that there is no chance of it ever changing.
    If the person decides to move on, just don’t fall for someone else 3 months later and propose.  You will destroy the other person by doing that, and that’s not right either.
    HONESTY matters.

    Without going into intimate details - back when we first met - I wanted to get married. We were both working, we did not own a house, still going to school , etc. That did not matter to me - I figured if we were going to be together - we should be married. The other things in our life would work themselves out over time. She felt differently - we had to be more secure, we had to be making more money, etc. - before she felt we could get married. Well we have finally reached the point where we are relatively financially secure - I have worked my ass off for the last 15 years or so and it is finally paying off. If I continue to work hard -and make smart financial moves we could be sitting quite pretty in another decade or so.

    I also wanted children. But I knew that the proverbial biological clock was ticking - for me as well as her. We are both getting up there in age now - she is late 30’s - and I am in my mid 40’s. Now that I am obviously going to be making a decent living - the last couple of years she has been pushing the marriage thing. But she also always said she didn’t want to get married until she was in better shape - she is currently pushing the high 200’s (she wont tell me - but when she asks me to guess and I give a number - she shuts up real quick, so I know I am close). It sounds like I am basing this purely on physical looks I know - but like previous respondents have mentioned - it is more than that. The woman cannot ride on the back of a motorcycle, she cannot fit in my sports car, she is always having one physical ailment after another. I am looking for a life partner - not a patient. She has promised over the years to take care of herself - but has always broken that promise. I felt it was my duty to make a better living than I was when we met. I went to school - worked my ass off - and I am. I felt it was my duty to provide a nice place to live. I learned carpentry - built a house (literally - not by paying contractors) -and continue to do all home related work myself. I feel like I have fulfilled my end of the man-woman deal. She has yet to fulfill hers.

    The want that I had to have children is also slowly fading. As I get older - I don’t have the energy to spend that I once did. I know that children require energy. My time to be a father may be coming to an end - if that time has not ended already.

    When I take all of this in sum total - I have to ask myself seriously why would I want to be married? Especially given all of reasons laid out in the article - and by all of the previous respondents to this article. I have been fully aware of all of this for a long time - 25 years at least, like I said above.

    She knows all of this - I am honest with her. She chooses not to hear it though I think. To me it boils to a simple explanation - I have worked hard to fulfill my “man” end our relationship deal - she has failed to fulfill her “woman” end of that deal. And society has not helped her by filling her head will all of the random bullshit spewed by feminists, womens’ magazines, Oprah, the legal system, etc.

    I am getting older - old enough I realize mistakes at this point in my life may have no chance of being corrected. Being raked over the coals on a divorce could be such a mistake. I was willing to take the chance 10 years ago - I am slowly coming to realize that I may not be willing to take that chance any more.

    Author ID: 9485 | 2/14/2008 03:13 PM CST | #113190
  151. Because she knows if she can get you mad, she controls you.

    That particular piece does seem to fit the puzzle, near the end she and I were arguing over something that I allegedly said even though I know I could never have said it. Perhaps she was looking for control.

    Or she grew up in a household of shouters and thinks that you need that kind of drama in your live to demonstrate passion.

    Some people manufacture drama in their lives, because that is something they’re used to.

    Another reason to look carefully at the family.  If they fight and shout, THAT is how they will behave (unless lots of therapy is involved) because people replicate in their own marriages what they think marriage is.

    Actually her family was very nice, some of the kindest people I’d ever met, so I don’t think that was the case. However your point is a good one to make.

    I’m not sure looks have much to do with some of the problems, every girl I’ve ever dated wasn’t how most guys would say “sexy” or “hot.” I prefer them to have curves(That Venus painting is “sexy” to me), a nice personality and if their appearance wasn’t ideal it didn’t really matter to me. Of course, I’m old fashioned too so my opinion probably isn’t going to fit most other men my age(25). They usually do like the anorexic bimbos that have been discussed here.

    Author ID: 9852 | 2/14/2008 03:16 PM CST | #113191
  152. A positive word for all of you guys in honor of Valentine’s Day:

    I am a female who:

    Loves guys
    Isnt materialistic
    Doesnt nag or yell
    Likes sex
    Appreciates it like hell when a guy does nice stuff
    Can kick b-tt on my own when necessary - and will do so for my guy too if needed
    Likes to spoil a guy big time
    Is relatively attractive (if I say so myself)
    Not a b-llbuster at all (using dashes in case site has a filter)
    I’m personally just waiting for the guy that ‘feels right’ for me all around.

    Just wanted to let you guys know that there are good women out there, and they (like great guys) are worth the wait.

    Happy Valentine’s Day!!!!!

    Author ID: 10905 | 2/14/2008 03:52 PM CST | #113195
  153. There’s an essay floating around somewhere on the intarwebs called “the Pussification of the Western Male” that goes into some depth on the matter. You may want to dig it up. 

    I was just re-reading that particular essay just the other day.

    Author ID: 9485 | 2/14/2008 04:10 PM CST | #113196
  154. Thanks for the hope, Miriam123. I’m still going to be careful, but I won’t give up just yet.  smile

    Author ID: 353 | 2/14/2008 04:16 PM CST | #113197
  155. Point of Order....

    My spouse was of the venusesque sort..and that was all good.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/14/2008 04:26 PM CST | #113199
  156. These posts should be required reading for all of us “clueless” females out there. It is painfully insightful, I keep seeing myself over and over. One thing that I do not see addressed is how to balance what you guys want with what we want....(as we clearly see they are not the same thing and only occasionally overlap) or does it matter???? I don’t think that marriage is a one way street, some of you guys seem to think that it is. Most of us ladies know that to have a happy guy we need to “wag more” but what else? Help us out here....we REALLY want to get on the good side of that ledger.

    Author ID: 10904 | 2/14/2008 04:29 PM CST | #113200
  157. Just a note of hope on this Valentine’s Day. I proposed to my wife 26 years ago today. I was married at 22, before I was “smart” enough to know better (Abstinence worked its wonders). In the following 26 years I’ve lived with an amazing woman and friend. There have been times of incredible frustration but the scale is definitely in her favor.

    First with the debits in the ledger: She lied when she said she liked skiing (my first love). She lied when she said she keep her car clean if I bought her one. Similarly for the house, second car, third car. In general, she’ll promise anything to get what she wants. She’s a slob. We don’t share a ton of passionate interests. She can’t listen to anything without offering advice. She can’t handle credit. She gets defensive at the slightest hint of criticism of her or of anyone in our family. I occasionally am so frustrated with her that want to go live on a boat.

    Now the credits: She loves sex, always wants it. We are both passionate about our children. She is generally happy all the time. She forgives easily. She cooks pretty well and does it regularly. She washes all the clothes.  She’s getting better at being orderly. She teaches the kids piano, gets them to soccer, dance, gymnastics, football, basketball, tennis. I earn all the dough. I drive when we go places. I handle all the investing but she gets a weekly stash to do whatever she wants. She takes care of herself and normally looks great. She’s highly competitive. She loves to win and does it often, takes joy watching you lose. She volunteers in the community teaching English to refugees. She doesn’t care about things. She’s athletic. She’s faithful. Loves to travel.

    In spite of the frequent frustrations, I don’t know where I’d be without her. We have been a great team. We have faced great challenges together and have come out the better for them. She’s put up with my weaknesses: impulsiveness, self doubt, occasional negativity, and discouragement. She pushes me to be my best and I try to live up to her vision. Thank God she said “yes” 26 years ago.

    If there’s any advice I’d pass on, it’s this. Get married in your twenties while the picking is good. There’s wisdom in our traditions of abstinence.

    -thin

    Author ID: 10902 | 2/14/2008 04:41 PM CST | #113201
  158. Notdoneyet,

    Marriage is most CERTAINLY NOT a one way street. Men and women have both convergent and divergent goals in life.  In as much as I’m not really happy right now, spouse and I still TALK...about life, US, kids, future and a lot of other things directly and tangentially related to our lives together and its continuance.

    There are certain things I wont compromise on...her as well.  SO far those are relatively of low consequence once you get past the continued health one.  Finances - we talked that out… Kids - nightly subject, goals - ditto, Stuff - likewise. 

    I’ve always gone after this as a Husband, Provider, Father, Champion and Protector.  Sometimes I do well, others I need a bit of help. she has gone after it as Wife, Mother, Homemaker(is a CPA tho), Protector and Support.  We have hobbies, both that involve the other and that dont....we balance those as best we can, mine are seasonal, hers are year round.

    As was stated above...we Men are fairly simple creatures in the vast sum of things. Speaking for myself...I can forgive a LOT of other things if the house is clean(more or less...no Better Homes and Gardens needed), kids and I are fed and we both have fun when the bedroom door is closed.  I do the heavy lifting chores, most of the outside stuff and take out the trash. She does laundry and dishes, Kids stuff (unless she needs a heavy with the school - I do that WELL...), house stuff and we try to do cooking, and others together. 

    I guess the shortest way is to tell you; PARTICIPATE in life WITH us, not as an adjunct, nor as a means to a singular end.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/14/2008 04:50 PM CST | #113202
  159. Thinrim,

    That was what I did as well.

    Author ID: 8894 | 2/14/2008 04:56 PM CST | #113203
  160. Miriam123,

    Thank you for the glimpse of hope, but I met that woman.  I fell in Love with her and she loves me (notice the difference in emphasis on the two “L’s").

    But for her, we just didn’t “feel right”.  And there lies my frustration.  If we have all the positives and VERY few negatives and we are best friends…
    but I am beating a dead horse.

    I know there are great women out there.  I have met a few.  Unfortunately, most are already married (some to great guys, some not) or scared to death (of men, of commitment, of something).  But romantic sap that I am, I keep trying.  And I don’t mean marriage and/or kids necessarily, but certainly someone to Love and be Loved by.

    TS

    I admit that I am one of those guys who prefers the Barbie type.  What can I say, it is what I like.  Having said that, my Love was no Barbie.  5’8” 145# when we met and she told me that was a light as she was likely to ever be.  Four years later and much bitching about her weight (by her) she weighed 175 and I loved her even more and reminded her daily how beautiful she is.  And she is.  The outside is nice, could use some work, if for no other reason than to make her more comfortable with herself, but the inside is the part that really attracted me to her.  It always was.

    One thing that she never liked and never got over, is that I was always smaller than her.  5’9” 155# but my 29” waist was 2 inches narrower than hers when we met and the gap grew.  She always felt that we looked silly together.  I never cared so long as I was holding her hand and had her at my side. 

    Not to mention the women who are 5’1” who won’t date me because I am “too short”.  It isn’t only men who want to date a Supermodel.

    Author ID: 9952 | 2/14/2008 05:26 PM CST | #113205
  161. Referencing my previous comment, here’s some corroborating evidence.

    Author ID: 9327 | 2/14/2008 07:17 PM CST | #113211
  162. This thread is actually a lot more positive than most of the “why men don’t marry” topics I’ve seen lately. Really.

    It’s long, and there’s a lot of points, so here goes:

    1) “Wag more. Bark less.”
    It’s amazing how that works in all relationships, not just marriage. I don’t see why so many people expend their energy in being negative— it can’t be fun from their end either.

    2) “former tomboys”
    Was I a tomboy? My mother didn’t think so… egads, I was a couselor at a Boy Scout summer camp. I think I’m pegged. wink However, neither of my sisters was a tomboy, I think (oh shoot, the elder met her husband while playing softball)… well, I’m going to have to get back to you on that.

    Really what it comes down to is respect. A woman who treats people in general with respect is a good prospect; one who treats people with contempt is not. And I say this as one of a fairly large group of friends who have many marriages and no divorces. The key is treating the other person well.

    3. Marriage is the only place where “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” holds up. I cook because I’m the one that gets cranky when hungry. He does the laundry because he has more time than me at the moment. If we can ever afford a house, I will mow the lawn since he’s 10+ allergic to grass clippings. I will take care of the kids (first one due in May*) because he’s the one that ended up with a viable career path— and that wasn’t settled when we married.

    4. Women, this is important: Men are not psychic. In fact, you should treat men in general as though they have mild Asperger’s and cannot read emotion very well, because many of them can’t. If they ask how you are and you reply, “Fine,” don’t get mad when they take you at your word. (Evil Rob puts it thusly: “Men are stupid and women are evil.” He asked me to marry him less than a month after we started dating.)

    (After we’d known each other for three years, however.)

    5. Precision: I realized that it was a Good Idea to start dating Evil Rob after a party where a guy started hitting on me without listening to a word I was saying, and I began to wish I was “at the party” with him instead of free to be hit on by obnoxious jerks. Then I thought about it and realized, Hey wait, I don’t believe in Love At First Sight™, what the hell am I doing passing this guy up?

    Honestly, I’d go for “love” over “Love” any day. Keep trying; hang in there.

    6. Women’s magazines.
    Feh. Just feh.

    7. Tech Spt. on Darling Daughter: ‘Tis true, ‘tis pity, and ‘tis pity ‘tis true. The good part is that the guys in her age range will tend to be shallow; her odds will improve as she gets older. I’d suggest she get involved with things she likes and look for friends among the guys who treat her like a human bean. Worst comes to worst, at least she’s got some good friends.

    *8. I have heard rumors lately of a “Baby Boomlet”, where it’s suddenly more common to have two or more kids. I know that I’d want to have more than two, if I can stand the whole pregnancy thing. (It’s been almost a model pregnancy thus far, and it’s still obnoxious. Eyes on the prize. Eyes on the prize.) My branch of the family has been the anomaly; I’m one of five, I have eleven nieces and nephews— but Evil Rob, who is also the youngest of five, has only five nieces and nephew, and out of Dad’s eight siblings, I only have four cousins. I’m actually not sure how many cousins I have from Mom’s two siblings (five at a guess, at least I can name five) because that side of the family tends to get a bit tangled.

    Is this happening? Quite possibly; the most prolific of my married friends is working on number four. But also maybe not, since another set is holding at one for now, and a third has stopped with the twins.

    Author ID: 7561 | 2/14/2008 07:36 PM CST | #113213
  163. my Love was no Barbie. 5’8” 145# when we met and she told me that was [as] light as she was likely to ever be.

    That’s not a Barbie?? At my thinnest, I weighed just under 140# at the same height, and I was an unhealthy bag of bones.

    “Wag more. Bark less.”

    This article sounded a bit condescending at first, but maybe it has some merit. I like the part about ignoring the bad stuff—makes life so much easier.

    Author ID: 8184 | 2/14/2008 08:53 PM CST | #113218

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