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Position Paper (3) - Conservatism

Kim du Toit
June 5, 2006
10:15 AM CDT

As most of my regular Readers know, there are a few issues that we do not debate on this website, because they are settled.  The data is in.  There is no discussion possible.  The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable. Some obvious examples:

  • Capitalism is better than communism.
  • Western society is better than any other society.
  • An armed society is better-off than a disarmed society.
  • Republicans manage U.S. foreign policy better than Democrats do.
And so on.

What we discuss on this website are the details, such as which Browning model is prettier, whether we prefer revolvers or semi-auto pistols, or whether Democrats should be tarred and feathered before or after they’re hung from lamp posts.

We don’t discuss if individuals should be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.  We don’t debate the unconstitutionality of gun bans in the United States.  (They are unconstitutional--no debate is necessary.)

More recently, we don’t discuss if the border with Mexico should be secured; we discuss how it should be secured, and which politicians need to be voted out of office for their failure to recognize their responsibilities.

Even more recently, however, in the various Slippery Slope discussions, some people have actually suggested that polygamy is an acceptable alternative that should be considered, or allowed.

That is not a negotiable point.

The topic of homosexual marriage is rapidly approaching that status. I can’t believe that I even have to explain why redefining and undermining the institution of marriage would be a Bad Thing for our society.

So it’s time for another Position Paper. (#1 and #2 came earlier)

While I’ve said it numerous times, I believe that some people are still not getting it.  I am a conservative. Libertarians serve an interesting purpose as a kind of benchmark, in that they reveal that what lies at the “freedom” end of the slippery slope of libertarianism is libertinism and ultimately, chaos. (Only libertarians, for example, ever debate whether an individual should be allowed to own a nuclear weapon. Morons.)

I am not a libertarian.

Libertarianism is contrary to conservatism, not its first cousin.  There are issues that overlap, there might even be some common issues (and much fewer than most libertarians believe withal), but the way in which one determines the right or wrong side of an issue also determines whether one is a libertarian or a conservative. 

Libertarians decide issues using the criterion: “Will it increase or decrease individual freedom?”

If it decreases individual freedom, they are against it, almost regardless of the consequences to society as a whole.

Conservatives decide on matters using the criterion: “Will it improve or damage our society?”

If it damages or threatens society, conservatives are against it, but that doesn’t mean we always come down on the side of the collective—anything but.  We conservatives are always striving for the balance between individual liberties (which if taken to extremes will result in libertinism) and the social compact (which if taken to an extreme ends in socialism and/or totalitarianism). 

We’ve gotten into some fairly heated debates on this website, mostly on the issue of the Social Compact.  The Social Compact, the agreement between individuals who share/reside in the nation-state, is superior and paramount to the actions of the state.  The Compact is outside the law, as it focuses primarily on issues of morality, taste, and manners, which history has shown cannot be managed by law.  Laws which attempt to legislate morality, taste, or manners exacerbate the problems (Prohibition supporters, call your office).

But conservatives recognize that Man is a tribal animal, and needs various rules and structures to keep him (if my Christian Readers will forgive me for borrowing the phrase) on the straight and narrow. We aren’t Howard Roark-style loner types—well, most of us aren’t, anyway—and while the rules pertaining to our social wellbeing are fairly lenient (as long as we can keep nutcases like Pat Robertson away from the levers of power), we believe that transgression of those rules deserves punishment. No structure for punishment: Lord of the Flies. Too much punishment: Stalinist labor camps.

If you want to see a sample checklist of what conservatives want, you can start here.

Conservatives want to restore the fundamental societal institutions, such as marriage, that have been weakened. We’ve tried all the social experiments, and they’ve failed.  Failed miserably.  We want to undo those changes, not discuss the pros and cons of further tinkering.  There are no pros.

Conservatives want to end the artificial institutions, such as the social welfare system, which have been imposed on society and have failed. No one denies the need for a helping hand for the truly needy (such as the mentally retarded, the maimed, or severely disabled). But charity should have a limit—and we’re way past that limit right now, when the able-bodied can receive welfare checks simply because they are poor or have given birth to yet another extramarital infant.

Conservatives want to take morality and manners away from lawyers and politicians, and return them to the traditional arbiters of such:  parents and their churches. It is because we’ve allowed such delicate issues to be managed by the battering ram of law that we have politically-correct speech codes—indeed, the very term “politically-correct” is an Orwellian nightmare which has no place in the maintenance of manners and morality. In the not-too distant past, regulation and the law only got involved when breaches of the above were egregious: murder, rape, assault, and so on. But it is an abhorrent concept that assault, bad as it is, can somehow be made worse by the thought behind its committal—calling someone a “dirty Jew” while beating him senseless is somehow worse than just beating him senseless because he was available.

Conservatives want to strengthen the nation-state against other nation-states or malevolent entities. In the old days, of course, we only had to worry about other nation-states; more recently, since the arrival of Marxism, we’ve had to do battle with the socialists (who would tear down our society’s structure and replace it with one which doesn’t work) and with radical Islamists (who would tear down our society’s structure and replace it with one which we abhor and which doesn’t work). Nowadays, we have no serious competition among other nation-states. What we have are competitive (and inimical) world-views whose adherents wear no uniforms, and who strive to end our society and culture by means of undermining it (eg. through the public education system) or by weakening our resolve (through terrorism and its ally, defeatism).

Other malevolent entities include the New York Times, the United Nations, most of academia, and a major percentage of the Democrat Party base, but so far, none of these have flown airliners into our skyscrapers, so they get a pass while we deal with Al Qa’eda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and France. (This paragraph was a joke. So far.)

Conservatives want government to be less intrusive, and just less, period. Keen observers will note that at this point, there is a wide divergence between conservatives and Republicans (who were once the standard-bearer for conservatism, but who now resemble nothing as much as Trumanesque Democrats). This, by the way, is where there is an overlap between conservatism and libertarianism, but only a little one. Conservatives like having around the place things like carrier groups, dams, interstate highways and the electrical grid system, none of which could ever realistically be financed, built or maintained by “the market” without costing the populace a great deal more. When activities are performed on a large scale, a controlling authority, even an inefficient one like most governments are, is better than none.

Conservatives have a somewhat jaundiced view of human nature. We don’t have a high opinion of the individual, although we believe that, over time, most people will do the right thing. We have an even lower opinion of crowds (and most especially, of the formalized mob known as “government"), for all the best of reasons. Thus we are scornful of the socialist philosophy which espouses the belief (note: belief) that people will always work only for the greater good ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"), and are only slightly less scornful of a philosophy which mandates that all (note: all) social decisions are best left to the individual. Most especially, we do not feel this scorn gratuitously or capriciously: like the rest of our weltanschauung, this cynicism has been formed by a careful study of history, which is replete with all-too many examples of the failures of each end of the socio-political spectrum as outlined above.

It has often been said that conservatives fear change. We don’t, but could be excused for feeling that way. When it comes to societal issues, not much is new under the sun; and most changes to long-standing institutions have screwed things up horribly.

Enough already: it’s about time that pendulum started its opposite swing. And if this little piece does anything to get the process started, it will be the best thing ever to have come from this blog.




Comments

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  1. Can I get an Amen.

    og | 6/5/2006 10:30 AM CDT | #64390
  2. Very tiny nit, this being a position paper: [The Social Compact, like data, is .... grin]

    The Social Compact, the agreement between individuals who share/reside in the nation-state, are is superior and paramount to the actions of the state.

    Felix Estrella | 6/5/2006 10:52 AM CDT | #64395
  3. Fixed, thankee.

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 10:56 AM CDT | #64397
  4. Wow. Very clear Kim. And I agree.

    In defense of libertarians, however, I will say this: The ones I have dealt are, at the very least, consistent and objective. I agree and disagree with them plenty, but at least they don’t take my disagreement (or my conservatism) personally and lose their minds like many Leftists do. They also enjoy fair and honest debate, which is always a good thing in my book.

    fasterplease | 6/5/2006 11:09 AM CDT | #64399
  5. Very near the end of this position paper, I found one item I would like to discuss.

    We don’t have a high opinion of the individual

    While I consider myself a conservative, I have a strong belief in the individual. It is the individual that makes the decisions, forms opinions, acts on his principles, etc. Any effort to push that into the collective is a dangerous mistake. Once I hear “It takes a village” I am in opposition to it.

    Individual rights, individual freedoms, and individual responsibility all go hand in hand. In my United States, you have the freedoms, if you misuse them and are held responsible, don’t blame anyone else for your choices and actions.

    This does not mean I think people will always or even often make the right choices or take the right actions, only that any system that tries to make their choices for them is repellent to the freedoms we are trying to defend.

    All organizations, up to and including the nation, are groups of individuals banding together for the greater good of all the participating individuals. The state itself is not the reason the state exists, the state exists to enhance the lives and opportunities of the individual citizens.

    Semper Fidelis,
    ASM826

    USMC-1983 | 6/5/2006 11:15 AM CDT | #64400
  6. This is why there are such huge rifts between the various type of libertarians.

    There are some who understand that a certain degree of government is necessary to function (minarchists of various stripes, some syndicalists), and some who do not.

    There are some who understand that thought governments should not be involved, that group loyalties, dynamics, morality and rules ARE CRITICAL to a functioning society (again minarchists, and syndicalists), and some who do not.

    Those who do not understand these basic precepts believe that everyone should be 100% free, politically, economically, and socially; without regard to consequence so long as anothers individual freedom is not limited.

    In this way lies defeat in gross, and in detail. This is not a society, it is a bacteriological culture.

    Minarchist ibertarians make up a fair bit of republican voters; unfortunatley since the other type controls the libertarian party as a whole they are NOT a significant element in current “Libertarian” politics; and are unable to act as a counter to the anarchist and single issue drug libertarians.

    Chris Byrne | 6/5/2006 11:18 AM CDT | #64401
  7. USMC,

    Criminals are individuals; the criminal justice system is the enforcement of the social compact.

    In other words, while individuals may do “whatever is not forbidden” by law, custom or morality, too often the individuals will choose to do so. A group of individuals, however, will tend to do the right thing, if given the (very-loose) parameters of behavior which a free society imposes.

    It’s an incredibly fine distinction—but those are the interesting ones to discuss.

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 11:26 AM CDT | #64402
  8. I agree with a loud and clear Amen! However, I think the statement,” the best thing ever to have come from this blog.”, might create some debate only due to the fact that over the last 3 years, I’ve read more equally great essays on this blog than I can count. I hope this one gets the traffic it deserves. Thanks Kim.

    dogwit | 6/5/2006 11:30 AM CDT | #64404
  9. The topic of homosexual marriage is rapidly approaching that status. I can’t believe that I even have to explain why redefining and undermining the institution of marriage would be a Bad Thing for our society.

    In the eyes of the state, marriage is just a contract between consenting adults.  I dont’ understand why conservatives have this big issue with gay marriage other than politocos pandering to the base.

    Conservatives want to restore the fundamental societal institutions, such as marriage, that have been weakened. We’ve tried all the social experiments, and they’ve failed.  Failed miserably.  We want to undo those changes, not discuss the pros and cons of further tinkering.  There are no pros.

    then explain this whole push for gay marriage thing?  I don’t see how it’s related.  Why not push to ban divorce?  Oh, conservatives get divorced too.

    SayUncle | 6/5/2006 11:31 AM CDT | #64405
  10. Uncle,

    It’s not a question of banning divorce, and I’m surprised that you of all people would go to the logical extreme. Divorce has always been available, to a greater or lesser degree.

    What it has become is too easy to obtain. So the result has been horrible things like Britney Spears’ 55-hour marriage, Mickey Rooney’s eight divorces (I may be out of date, of course: he’s still alive), and similar stuff—none of which would have been possible a hundred years ago.

    Would I try to ban divorce? No way—even if I could. I would like it, however, to become far more difficult to obtain; because if that were the case, then people might take it more seriously.

    Another possibility is by making divorce’s consequences more punitive, such as by negating pre-nuptial contracts, and enforcing community of property—the prospect of losing half your estate every time you get married might deter even rich libertines like Donald Trump.

    But all that is a discussion for another time.

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 11:48 AM CDT | #64406
  11. Speaking as a (minarchist) libertarian, I would say that debating over whether individuals can or should own nuclear weapons is rather like squabbling over the exact nature of Christ (quarrels over this split the early Church repeatedly; look up “monophysite” or “Nestorian” sometime) or arguing over whether the streets of Heaven are paved with 18-karat or 24-karat gold.

    I could have stayed a conservative if so many conservatives weren’t just as eager to stick their snouts into my private life as liberals are, and if conservatism hadn’t been taken over by religious fundamentalists.  Where is Barry Goldwater now that I need him?

    Technomad | 6/5/2006 12:14 PM CDT | #64409
  12. Uncle,

    In the eyes of the state, marriage is just a contract between consenting adults.  I dont’ understand why conservatives have this big issue with gay marriage other than politocos pandering to the base.

    How do you differentiate the marriage contract from other types of contracts? Is it a contract between two adults or any number of adults? Is it between a man and a woman, a man and a man, a woman and a woman, x men and y women? How about a man and a dog?
    A woman and a dolphin? When there are so many definitions of something it ultimately loses all meaning.

    Contrary to popular belief, homosexuals comprise only 1-3% of the population in this country, and the majority of them are not interested in marriage. So what we’re talking about here is undermining a vital institution for the sake of an anomalous group of people. This is all nominally in support of gay “rights,” but what it really comprises is an attempt by the cultural/political Left to undermine the foundation of conservative, Judeo-Christian values, which is the family. It is very much to the detriment of society. This is consistent with what Kim is talking about with conservatism vs. libertarianism.

    Sarah | 6/5/2006 12:36 PM CDT | #64412
  13. “So what we’re talking about here is undermining a vital institution for the sake of an anomalous group of people.”

    Sarah is hereby appointed as my surrogate debater on this issue.

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 12:44 PM CDT | #64413
  14. Kim,

    I don’t mean you specifically.  I mean the general tone of the debate today.  It was a statement about the fact marriage is no longer a sacred institution among most folks with divorce rates what they are.  I just can’t see tackling gay marriage and not addressing divorce rates.

    Sarah, are dolphins and dogs consenting adults?  I think your answer is in your own question.  As for differentiating contracts, easy:  marriage is spelled out to include survivorship rights, medical decisions, etc.

    And only 1-3% of the population are left handed, red-heads (at a guess).  So, willy-nilly, we make laws based on the number of folks?

    SayUncle | 6/5/2006 12:49 PM CDT | #64414
  15. Marriage is more than just a contract between two people and the government.

    It involves…

    Society (What you do does affect the rest of us.)
    Children (They deserve to be born in a home with a Mom and a Dad.)
    Neighbors (They have to live next door.)
    Family (You don’t just marry a girl you marry her family as well.)
    Friends (They know if you are married or not.)
    Employers (They usually prefer stable married workers.)
    Deity (Even if you don’t believe in one it involves other peoples Deity.)

    Moose42 | 6/5/2006 01:13 PM CDT | #64416
  16. Kim,

    The balance is not between my rights and the rights of the state. It is between my rights and yours. The criminal, in a reasonable society based on laws, infringes on the rights of others by his behavior. The social compact is the accepted level of frictions between the sometimes conflicting behavior of individuals.

    As a simple example, I may choose to buy an automobile that is capable of travelling 150 miles an hour. The currently agreed on limits for speed is legally ~70 mph on most highways. The practical, and socially agreed on, speed limit is ~80 mph. If I choose to travel in excess of those limits, and am caught, I will face the legal consequences. The social compact says that I may not use my actions to expose others to the elevated risks of my choices. The law in question balances my right to freely travel at any speed with your right to travel safely. The state is uninvolved, except as an enforcement tool.

    This, to me, is the proper way to consider limits of individual liberty. In this way, all of us retain the maximum possible freedom, while ensuring the health of the larger society.

    ASM826

    USMC-1983 | 6/5/2006 01:24 PM CDT | #64417
  17. Conservatives like having around the place things like carrier groups, dams, interstate highways and the electrical grid system, none of which could ever realistically be financed, built or maintained by “the market” without costing the populace a great deal more. When activities are performed on a large scale, a controlling authority, even an inefficient one like most governments are, is better than none.

    I would doubt this is a proper characterization of conservatives as a whole. It certainly is not my position. The electrical system is completely privately owned. I’m not sure of how things work in the connections between companies, though it seems rather unlikely the electricity suppliers would even be in control of the grid itself if things had been left to the market as the Constitutional system would have done. And I can’t imagine a way anything related to that industry could be more expensive than the way it us under government involvement. Yes, it is heavily regulated, but you may notice the problems we’ve had were results of that regulation, including less investment in new production. So indeed, you are wrong about the market in that matter. The faux market that the Democrats in California and the fool governor Pete Wilson put in place was not a real market. The government was setting prices, it was filled with exceptions and, indeed, it appears to have been set up by the left merely to try to harm the cause of liberty’s proponents.

    As for interstate highways, I don’t know why you think they need federal or even state financing. We have examples of private roadways which work. Over time, wisdom and profit will make roadmakers consult with each other to connect highly traveled roads together, making a system which would resemble an interstate highway system, but without the violation of property rights the (ICBM carrying) original system made and has let fall apart while collecting stupendous amounts of tax dollars which are not spent on maintenance. If the Federal government had an interest in making the roads more to their military needs like Eisenhower’s original plan, then perhaps they could have subsidized the changes if necessary to get them accomplished.

    Dams, well, there are pluses and minuses, aren’t there. We ruined the lower Mississippi by doing all sorts of things which have caused the problems we’ve seen when big storms hit. There’s no reason at all that government need be involved in their construction, however. But then the government would have to give up “ownership” which they imagined themselves having of the navigable waters, too. Bechtel Corp. basically built the entire Hoover Dam on their own, funded by taxpayers, and that was before WWII, so it’s not exactly unthinkable that private entities could do such things.

    Carriers and supporting ships, yes, there’s probably no private entity who would have desire for such things, so that would be a government purchase. And one that’s actually Constitutional for a change.

    TraitorHater | 6/5/2006 01:35 PM CDT | #64420
  18. Historically marriage has been between consenting adults of the OPPOSITE SEX.  Historically there has been no gay marriage.  Any famous gay liasons/ relationships have typically been extramartial.  What conservatives are trying to do is keep them between a single man and single woman.  I think there’s a better arguement societally and historically for polygamy than there is for gay marriage, because polygamy has historical precedents, whereas gay marriage does not.

    DFWMTX | 6/5/2006 01:53 PM CDT | #64423
  19. Marriages are about family. That’s the beginning, and the end of it. Any union which does not at least acknowledge that fact isn’t a marriage (and yes, I know that some people marry and choose not to have children—I have no opinion on that, either way, but they are, by their own admission, outside the bell curve, and that’s not how we base public policy).

    A “marriage” between two men, or two women, and all the other options does not have that end in mind.

    Oh, hell, when in doubt, quote greatness:

    “The family is the basic unit of our society, the heart of our free democracy… It is a time to recommit ourselves to the concept of the family—a concept that must withstand the trends of lifestyle and legislation. Let us pledge that our institutions and policies will be shaped to enhance an environment in which families can strengthen their ties and best exercise their beliefs, authority, and resourcefulness. And let us make our pledge mindful that we do so not only on behalf of individual family members, but for America.” —Ronald Reagan

    I don’t know why I didn’t just start with that.

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 02:01 PM CDT | #64424
  20. Kim,

    From my comment on speeding laws, I would extrapolate that laws about marriage can also be seen through the same viewpoint. If marriage between one man and one woman is agreed to be by the majority of individuals so core and so critical to the good of the overall society, then the rights of dissenting individuals may properly be overridden.

    ASM826

    USMC-1983 | 6/5/2006 02:49 PM CDT | #64432
  21. I’ve said often that the gays could have about 90% of what they want if they had the common (CENSORED) sense to not call it “marriage.”

    Like, for example, being able to designate a same-sex partner as “next of kin” instead of blood kin who may well be hostile to the wishes of their kinsman.  I can think of several “work-arounds” for this, including reviving the “adopt-as-brother” ceremonies used in some of the Eastern churches---the ones that idiot who wrote Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe deliberately misinterpreted.  (As this blog’s sole, to my knowledge, Byzantine buff, I can tell you that that book’s so far wrong that you can’t get much wronger.)

    Unfortunately, the “gay” leadership includes a lot of people who want to endlessly up the ante on tolerance, mainly because for them, it isn’t about being accepted, it’s about sticking pins in the “straights” and working out their personal psychodramas.

    As far as polygamy goes, I don’t see the Big Problem, frankly.  I will freely admit that the Fundamentalist LDS Church of Hildale/Colorado City is a creepy, nasty operation, but that’s largely because they’re a small, isolated (by several hundred miles of baldhead desert) group totally under the thumbs of a small group of deeply selfish, autocratic old men.  As I understand it, when the main LDS church practiced polygamy prior to 1890, most of the problems came from the Feddle Gummint insisting on sticking its oar in.  In any case---if some idiot wants to be shrieked at in stereo, who am I to oppose his wish for self-destruction?  Me, I like living alone.

    Technomad | 6/5/2006 02:56 PM CDT | #64435
  22. Technomad,
    Like, for example, being able to designate a same-sex partner as “next of kin” instead of blood kin

    Isn’t that what things like durable power of attorney are for?

    Rick C | 6/5/2006 03:18 PM CDT | #64436
  23. And as far as polygamy goes, we’ve already covered that, at least partially.  A drawback of polygamy is that you wind up with a large surplus of young males for whom there are no available mates, and that’s a demographic that tends to cause a lot of trouble.

    Rick C | 6/5/2006 03:20 PM CDT | #64437
  24. A drawback of polygamy is that you wind up with a large surplus of young males for whom there are no available mates, and that’s a demographic that tends to cause a lot of trouble.

    Isn’t that solved by the Internet (ie, pornography)? Well, I know what demographic you are talking about, and as I learned from South Park, they are angry because they can’t have sex before marriage (and they aren’t getting married because there is no one to marry...), they have sand up their rears, and they can’t jack off.

    TheRoyalFamily | 6/5/2006 04:10 PM CDT | #64441
  25. TRF, to answer your first question, no, it’s not.  To address the rest of your reply, the issue is more widespread than that.  There’s an issue with the FLDS and excess young males, some of whom are being just turned out on the street.  At least, that’s what I’ve read--I think there’s a reader here who can comment on that.  I don’t know if those “Mormons” are causing a problem with crime, etc., or not, but it’s certainly a demographic (single young males) that causes trouble all over the world.

    Rick C | 6/5/2006 04:22 PM CDT | #64442
  26. Sarah, are dolphins and dogs consenting adults?  I think your answer is in your own question.

    In a sane world, Uncle, the question wouldn’t even be worth asking, but since we now have
    the Spanish government trying to introduce a bill declaring apes as people with all attendant “human” rights, you can no longer rule out the possibility of people being able to legally marry animals.

    And only 1-3% of the population are left handed, red-heads (at a guess).  So, willy-nilly, we make laws based on the number of folks?

    Willy-nilly we don’t change long-standing institutions based on the preferences of a tiny group. This issue is often debated as if we are denying a right to people based on lifestyle/physical attributes/whathaveyou, but left-handed redheads/homosexuals have exactly the same right as you and me—to marry a consenting adult of the opposite sex. Though I’m certain that some advocates feel very strongly about gay “rights,” keep in mind that the real force behind all this couldn’t care less about them. The primary motivation is to undermine Judeo-Christian values, thereby destroying the underpinning of traditional Western society.

    I understand your point of view, Uncle. There is a small part of me that sympathizes with a more libertarian view, but it really all comes down to pointless philosophizing. The proof of the argument is places like Europe, where marriage has already been undermined with disastrous consequences. As Kim pointed out, the primary function of marriage is to serve as the basis for a family—the underpinning of Western society—and in general two mommies or two daddies, or whatever other permutations people come up with, does not fulfill that function. Look at Scandinavia, or much of Central Europe for that matter. In Sweden and Finland marriage and family is all but a thing of the past. Indigenous populations are unable to sustain themselves, and meanwhile, Europe is being swarmed by Muslims. Unless Europeans figure out a way to motivate people to reproduce, the culture will be dead within a few generations. That’s what concerns me. There’s no such thing as a perfectable society. If a marriage amendment is successful in its ultimate goal of upholding the basis for family and therefore the culture, it will also have the effect of displeasing a very, very small percentage of the population. In my view, it’s an acceptable trade-off.

    Sarah | 6/5/2006 04:33 PM CDT | #64444
  27. Kim,

    Many of your points - IMAO - put you in the camp of reactionaries (the horror! the horror!).  In several of your points you don’t like the status quo and want to revert to a previous system, a previous status.

    I have stopped calling myself a conservative in any serious discussion, because I am not interested in conserving the status quo.  If at all possible, I want to capture the worms and put them back in the can, close pandora’s box and put the genie back in the bottle.

    I am, by and large (and I am large), a reactionary.  Designating myself thus changes nothing, but it simplifies discussions with folks of varied viewpoints and short ciruits a great deal of “how can you want to change that?” nonsense.

    When in a discussions a Libertarian acquaintance, I sometimes remind him that I am a reactionary and this removes a great deal of “fog.” Oddly, we can often come to a meeting of the minds on many issues.  I doubt that this current discussion about marriage would be one of those places, but imagine my surprise when he agreed with my statement on the border:
    -"It is OUR club, we make the rules about who joins the club!”
    and that he was a competitive shooter in college.

    Rob (FGA 291.5 up?  damn...)

    tweakphile | 6/5/2006 04:34 PM CDT | #64446
  28. Conservatives “don’t have a high opinion of the individual”? This is news?

    It was conservative Richard Nixon who created the BATF, gave us the Watergate scandal, resigned to avoid impeachment, and later argued for passage of the Brady Act and AWB. It was conservative Gerald Ford who pardoned Nixon, betrayed South Vietnam, and lobbied for the Brady Act and AWB.

    Conservative candidate Ronald Reagan promised to abolish the BATF if he was elected President. Upon gaining the White House, he promptly pardoned two senior FBI officials convicted of felony violations of the Fourth Amendment, appointed anti-gun James Brady as his press secretary, and increased the BATF’s size and funding throughout his terms in office. In 1986, he signed a ban on new fullauto firearms for lowly private citizens and an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. In 1994, Reagan wrote Republican members of Congress urging their support for Clinton’s AWB.

    Conservative GHW Bush voted for GCA-68 when he was in Congress. As president, he broke his “no new taxes” promise, issued an executive order in 1989 banning the importation of many semiauto firearms then gave us the Gulf War without bothering to obtain the declaration of war required in the Constitution. The murders of Sammy and Vicki Weaver and attempted murders of Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris by federal agents at Ruby Ridge also occurred under the GHW Bush regime. Bush I also supports the Brady Act and AWB.

    In 1994, conservative Republicans won majority control of Congress for the first time in my life. They promptly passed H.R. 666 (very appropriately numbered) to allow illegally obtained evidence to be admitted in federal courts. A Democrat amendment consisting of the exact language of the Fourth Amendment was voted down by the Republican majority, the same folks who swore an oath to adhere to the U.S. Constitution. Fortunately, this bill was killed in the Senate ... by evil liberal Democrats. Conservative Republicans did get the crucial Ensign Amendment enacted. I know I feel much safer knowing federal prisoners like former conservative congressman Duke Cunningham are now prohibited from being able to purchase and receive Playboy magazines in the mail.

    In 1996, every NRA-endorsed senator (including NRA director Larry Craig) voted for the Lautenberg Amendment to expand GCA-68 to include persons convicted of certain misdemeanors. Speaking of the conservative NRA, on 16 May 1995, while addressing the National Press Club, NRA-ILA head Tanya Metaksa said the NRA fully supported GCA-68. On 18 May 1995, while appearing on the Larry King show, NRA chief Wayne LaPierre said the NRA “didn’t want to restrict the BATF in any way.” My wife and I promptly resigned our NRA Life Memberships. Say, who was it who lobbied to incorporate an “Insta-check” system on long gun purchases into the Brady Act? Oh, I remember; it was the NRA. Sarah Brady’s version of the bill didn’t even mention long guns. And these are the good conservatives who prattle about the right to keep and bear arms. Funny how you conservatives use the word “right” when you clearly mean a government-bestowed privilege which may be curtailed or revoked at any moment by a majoritarian caprice.

    Conservative GW Bush was endorsed by the NRA while supporting the same anti-gun laws as John Kerry: NFA-34, GCA-68, Brady Act, 1994 AWB, Lautenberg Amendment. This is the same conservative GW Bush who gutted what little is left of the Fourth Amendment with his misnamed PATRIOT Act and invaded two sovereign countries without obtaining the congressional declaration of war specified in our Constitution. The same staunch conservative who advocates warrantless searches, electronic eavesdropping, arrests without charges, denial of counsel, and other flagrant violations of that pesky Bill of Rights which most conservatives (and liberals) only pay lip service to. The same president who claims an unidentifiable constitutional authority to break laws he’d signed moments earlier whenever it suits him, who expanded the powers and funding of the BATF (now BATFE), and who seeks a new amnesty for millions of illegal aliens.

    Put me down with those nutcase libertarians who use the criterion: “Will it increase or decrease individual freedom?” Give me more individual freedom. Please!

    BannedByCowards | 6/5/2006 04:55 PM CDT | #64447
  29. Technomad,

    “I could have stayed a conservative if so many conservatives weren’t just as eager to stick their snouts into my private life as liberals are, and if conservatism hadn’t been taken over by religious fundamentalists. ”

    As a “christian conservative” and pretty much a “religious fundamentalist,” I’ll concede that some of my brothers and sisters may care too much about your private life.  But in my experience, we have become outspoken not because we want to pry into the private lifes of people who do not live the way we think they should, but because they’ve taken to using the political and legal system to seek public approval of their private lives.  There’s a big difference between wanting me not to stick my nose in your private life, and you (figuratively) sticking your private life in my nose and telling me I have to like what I smell.

    baz1 | 6/5/2006 05:10 PM CDT | #64448
  30. Too bad President Reagan got it wrong when he called us a democracy…

    S600MBUSA | 6/5/2006 05:34 PM CDT | #64451
  31. Banned,

    I agree with all your points (unfortunately), and could add a few more of my own pet hatreds. Yet I have to ask myself, just as an example, whether the Assault Weapons Ban Continuation would have passed under, say, President Kerry and a Democrat-controlled Senate and House.

    Feel free to explain to me, therefore, how conservatives not voting for the next crop of Republicans, and thereby helping the Democrats regain control of the White House, Senate, House and (eventually) the Supreme Court would help us regain our individual rights.

    If you think the Republicans have a bad track record with our rights, just let the socialists take over…

    Kim du Toit | 6/5/2006 06:05 PM CDT | #64452
  32. “Feel free to explain to me, therefore, how conservatives not voting for the next crop of Republicans, and thereby helping the Democrats regain control of the White House, Senate, House and (eventually) the Supreme Court would help us regain our individual rights. “

    They are bastards, but they are our bastards?

    Ah for a way to get them to understand that this is a republic, not an oligarchy.  Many who were elected by the people seem to forget that they were elected by the people and as such are responsible to the people.

    “..It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

    This still rings true over a century later.  Thanks Abe!

    Rob

    tweakphile | 6/5/2006 06:34 PM CDT | #64456
  33. They are bastards, but they are our bastards?

    Tweakphile--I’m not too sure.  The other bastards, tho, they DEFINITELY aren’t ours.

    Rick C | 6/5/2006 07:17 PM CDT | #64459
  34. I don’t know if it is that we don’t have a high opinion of the individual, or of intentions.  Conservatives do not value intentions as being very important.  The intent of the individual has little bearing on the results of his actions.  You will thus see conservatives conceding the good intentions of liberals, while liberals will question the motivations of conservatves. 

    I’ll take your example of welfare a little farther for an example.  The Great Society programs were intended to help the poor to get their feet under them and make this underutilized segment of the population more productive.  The result, on the other hand was generations of poverty-stricken dependents becoming de-facto lifetime wards of the state.  When welfare reform was proposed to include a “root, hog, or die” clause, liberals once again attacked the intent of the reform, calling it an “attack on the poor” and “mean spirited.” The fact that welfare as it was known resulted in extended human misery was immaterial.  The intent was good.  Conservatives responded that good intentions are all very well, but you know what road they pave.

    Random Numbers | 6/5/2006 07:54 PM CDT | #64460
  35. Kim,

    Since you already established you place the rights of “society” ahead of the rights of the individual (a comment which easily could have come from Hillary Clinton’s lips), and you refuse to discuss, let alone acknowledge, the concept of declared powers (a cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution) which you brand the opinion of “morons” (i.e. the Founding Fathers), any effort on my part to honor your request appears to be an exercise in futility. But since you asked, here goes:

    Like many Americans, particularly gun owners, you cling to Republican politicians as the “lesser of two evils.” I shamefully confess to having perpetrated the same amoral act in the past, from my vote for Richard Nixon in 1972 which I cast from the Mekong Delta and later votes for Ford and Reagan. In 1974, I ran for elective office as a Republican in Monterey County, CA at age 21. Worst luck, I was elected. As a poor but principled ex-GI and college student, I was as welcome among RP country club politicos as Charles Schumer at a NRA convention.

    I quickly discovered my fellow Republican representatives had the same genuine regard for individual liberty and the Constitution as I have for genital herpes. It was a conservative RP senator from my district who sponsored California’s 15-day waiting period for handgun purchases. When I mentioned his bill was an overt violation of the Second Amendment, I might as well have been speaking Martian. “But ... but the police want it,” he blathered. “There’s a name for a place where laws are enacted on the basis of what cops want,” I replied. “It’s called a police state.” The primary goal of most Republican and Democrat politicians is the same: to attain and keep their positions so they may wield the coercive power of government.

    Whenever you vote for a perceived “lesser of two evils,” you invariably put a scoundrel in office. As Ayn Rand said, “In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.” Since I lack an electron scanning microscope, I can’t discern any apparent advantage to GW Bush over John Kerry. They both support the same anti-gun laws. They’re both former drug users (plus Bush was a drunk driver) who seek to incarcerate other Americans who engage in their behavior, pathological liars, have long histories of contempt for their oaths to support and defend the Constitution, and have zero interest in preserving, let alone restoring, individual liberties in America. Instead, most Republicans and Democrats appear to be in a contest to see which party can destroy more personal freedom the fastest while a largely ignorant electorate cheers them on.

    If Democrats had control of Congress and the White House in 2000 and 2004, you would have had an illegal war in Afghanistan, more unconstitutional federal spending, plenty of lies, and a chance of more oppressive anti-gun laws. With Republicans, you got two illegal wars, a federal budget that shocked even Democrats (no mean feat), the gutting of the Fourth Amendment, the Department of Homeland (Achtung! Your papers please.) Security, the Real ID Act, and plenty of lies. As Judge Andrew P. Napolitano declared, “The PATRIOT Act and its progeny are the most abominable, unconstitutional governmental assaults on personal freedom since the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.”

    BTW, as difficult as it is for many people to comprehend, words have meanings. The people you brand as “socialists” are nothing of the kind. Socialism refers to government ownership of the means of production. Few Democrats and virtually no Republicans are socialists; instead, both parties are comprised mostly of fascists. Both groups endorse private property rights under a powerful central government which gets to define the limits of its own power (i.e. none). More of that “society” above the individual notion.

    The dismal truth is most Americans no longer seriously want, or even genuinely understand, individual liberty. They want your “society” stuff. They want the Ponzi scheme called Social Security and they don’t want to hear libertarian nutcases point out its unconstitutionality. They want booze, rock music, plenty of prisons for other folks, comfort, television, and politicians to “rule” them with promises of the illusion of safety in exchange for what little is left of the liberty their ancestors fought and died to bequeath to their posterity.  They don’t want libertarian nutcases asking why people inexplicably lose their First, Second, Ninth and Tenth Amendment rights when they attempt to board an airliner, train or cruise ship or enter a courthouse or federal office building or how the recently-developed notion of “officer safety” somehow supercedes the Bill of Rights.

    Thanks to gerrymandering by both parties, there are now only a couple score of House seats out of 435 which are really up for grabs. What choice is there for a rational, informed, morally conscious human being? The obvious answer is those LP nutcases. For those lacking sufficient wit to recognize that society is just a collection of individuals and only individuals truly have rights then there’s the Constitution Party. The LP and CP candidates won’t win, but then you’re spared the knowledge of being responsible for putting a nefarious rascal into a position of power. If voting for a possible winner is more important to you than freedom then I remind you of the words of Gary Lloyd, “When the government’s boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.”

    In 1775, our forefathers fought a revolution to resist substantially less tyranny than we routinely endure today. At that time, the phrase “live free or die” represented a common personal conviction. To most contemporary Americans, these words are only a slogan on New Hampshire license plates. How did the children of the American Revolution sink to such depths of docility and ignorance? How did the heirs of the Sons of Liberty become so craven and servile? When I listen to gun owners brag about their CCW permits, I don’t know whether to cry or throttle them. Americans are reduced to bragging about getting written government permits before exercising an unalienable individual right. Patrick Henry must be puking in his grave.

    BannedByCowards | 6/5/2006 09:04 PM CDT | #64466
  36. Small-l libertarian, small-r republican here, personally fairly conservative as these things go. I base my fundamental assessment of the situation (and evaluate proposed solutions) as follows:

    Is the proposed solution likely, on balance, to make things worse?

    More specifically, when confronted with a proposed law (assuming that the proposed law in question represents an extension of the power of the State), I ask:

    1. Is this law necessary and proper to the carrying out of an enumerated power granted the State?

    2. Is it unjust (no more restrictive than necessary) toward those upon whom it is imposed?

    That formula pretty well sums up Barnett’s Presumption of Liberty, and that’s the hill upon which I choose to stand.

    It’s also why I focus almost to exclusion on guns, taxes, and property rights (being a parallel to Locke’s natural rights construction). If I am sufficiently well armed, secure in my possessions, and taxes are sufficiently low (thus starving Leviathan of fuel for the machinery of coercion) and the government limited to enumerated powers, I figure I can kick the bluenoses out of my privacy (not that they’d be other than bored by what I do with my privacy. but it’s the principle of the thing) any time I feel like it. tongue wink

    MiddleAgedKen | 6/5/2006 09:06 PM CDT | #64467
  37. I love a good debate.  Thanks to all of you.

    I don’t agree with some of the positions and opinions, but it’s dang good to sit in my home and learn the views of others.  It’s a treasure.  Consider it for a moment, please.  When else in history could a man born in South Africa share his opinions about life in America with the World and have his opinions countered by persons from a ‘broad strata’ of the country?  (Sorry, couldn’t resist the jab.)

    ---
    I don’t understand the passion of marriage as an institution that requires such protection.  I’m willing to defer to others as it doesn’t matter that much to me.  :shrug:  And I’m torn about how compelling the 3% issue is.  I appreciate that 3% should not require the majority to live their way.  But (as a software engineer), I don’t understand why allowing the man-man & woman-woman “varients” - as it were - to be recognized.  I mean, heck, marriage isn’t a “right”, so no one can claim they have a “right” to have their relationship “recognized”.  I don’t see why the FedGov is involved in marriage anyhow.  As Kim begins in his paper, trying to legislate social elements leads to disaster.  There are some intimate legal elements of marriage, but they are handled via contract law.  The entire subject - and the emotions that drive it - is something I don’t understand.  I have sisters, brothers, moms, dads, sons, and daughters from different marriages.  Literally, three generations of “step” and “half”.  Yet we all love each other as “full blood”.  Does a piece of paper from our current form of government effect my love for my siblings?  I would hope not.  So, as I said, I don’t understand the passion involved here.  It seems like recognizing same sex marriage should be a matter of “well it’s not for me, but if that’s what you want, fine”.  But - and it’s a big one - as one of the previous commenter’s pointed out - having it shoved down society’s throat and told “You vill give us ze right to marry!” is the completely wrong way to go about it.  I think it gets into the whole “lemon versus honey” concept.

    ---
    What I think would be great is for a popular blog to take something like Kim’s “Position Paper” and split it into it’s topics - then place those as conversation starters for a forum thread.  Personally, I like my conversations carefully organized so that I can follow a single topic through many people’s opinions.

    ---
    And on a different subject:
    Another topic mentioned was retaining the Republicans or tossing them for Democrats in order to “teach them a lesson”.  While I was originally for the idea, I’ve seen it could be very bad.  So I have come to like the idea of “Replace The Incumbant”.  The concept is to vote within the party you support, but not for the same person.  In the primary election, vote for the person who isn’t already in office.  I think it can serve a useful purpose - send a message, yet not become victims of the opposition, as it were.

    Thanks again, all.

    _Jon | 6/5/2006 09:19 PM CDT | #64468
  38. I don’t see why the FedGov is involved in marriage anyhow.

    They’re not, actually.  The amendment would make a federal matter out of the issue, something that hasn’t been in their realm before.

    Truth be told, I’m not sure why either side on this issue is all that riled up.  Does anybody here actually think the government is going to adhere to and uphold any amendment to, or the original text of, the Constitution?

    I mean, besides Amendment XVI?
    ---------
    In reference to the loony libertarians, Kim, I do have one question for you.  If it’s nuts to debate ownership of nuclear weapons then where do you draw the line?  I am speaking only of debate, not actual ownership.

    There are plenty of people that think it’s “crazy” to have a debate about ownership of semi-automatic AK-47’s for instance.

    Justin Buist | 6/5/2006 11:20 PM CDT | #64471
  39. Banned,

    And while you’re ranting and being ideologically pure, the Evil Ones are tightening the chains around your neck.

    Twenty-five years ago, you couldn’t carry a gun in this country unless you knew someone, had photos or were a LEO. Or were a criminal.

    Today, millions of Americans carry guns for self-defense, albeit with a permit. So what? In another twenty years’ time, if we keep working at it, you’ll only need a CCW permit in NYC, Chicago and Boston. In all the other states, you’ll be allowed to carry a gun without a permit.

    Sometimes, accommodation works. Sometimes, to reverse a trend, you have to slow the trend, then stop it, then reverse it. Just screaming at the trend from the sidelines doesn’t work.

    Oh, and one last thing: you misspoke when you said the following:

    Since you already established you place the rights of “society” ahead of the rights of the individual (a comment which easily could have come from Hillary Clinton’s lips), and you refuse to discuss, let alone acknowledge, the concept of declared powers (a cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution) which you brand the opinion of “morons” (i.e. the Founding Fathers), any effort on my part to honor your request appears to be an exercise in futility.

    Just for future reference, comparing me to Hillary Clinton may result in you being banned not just by cowards.

    As I said:

    If it damages or threatens society, conservatives are against it, but that doesn’t mean we always come down on the side of the collective—anything but.  We conservatives are always striving for the balance between individual liberties (which if taken to extremes will result in libertinism) and the social compact (which if taken to an extreme ends in socialism and/or totalitarianism). 

    All you read was the first sentence, and the Froth-O-Meter kicked into overdrive. Read the rest carefully. Also read this:

    We don’t have a high opinion of the individual, although we believe that, over time, most people will do the right thing. We have an even lower opinion of crowds (and most especially, of the formalized mob known as “government"), for all the best of reasons.

    Feel free to find any trace of fascism in that statement.

    Also, feel free to cut and paste where I said that the concept of declared powers is the opinion of morons. Those exact words, please, and not your parsing of what I wrote. If you can’t, then I’d appreciate an apology.

    I always appreciate passion, and you have lots of it. But if you vent at me, you’re not only pointing at the wrong guy, you’re alienating others like me. And there are more of US than there are of YOU.

    Kim du Toit | 6/6/2006 01:03 AM CDT | #64472
  40. Another possibility is by making divorce’s consequences more punitive

    Couple of problems here. To my mind, this skirts dangerously close to legislating morality, even to social engineering.

    Also, this is a minefield of potential unintended consequences. If you try to make divorce punitive (for *somebody*), then you’re going to make divorce extremely rewarding for someone else. Fairly rudimentary efforts to make divorce punitive (for men) have already led to “cashing out”, or in the words of someone I know turning marriage (for men) into “find a woman you hate and buy her a house”.

    So you want to take a failed experiment and make it work better by simply *trying harder*? Who does that remind you of, exactly?

    Greg | 6/6/2006 01:25 AM CDT | #64474
  41. TraitorHater,

    The electrical system is completely privately owned.

    I’m sure the good folks at Tacoma Power, Seattle Public Utilities, the Bonneville Power Administration, and many, many others will be quite surprised to find out you’ve transferred them to the private sector--without their knowledge or permission, yet!

    : - )

    Kim,

    Twenty-five years ago, you couldn’t carry a gun in this country unless you knew someone, had photos or were a LEO. Or were a criminal.

    I like what you say here, but please permit me one minor quibble, based on local pride of precedence: Washington’s shall-issue law passed in 1961, so at least in a few small parts of the country it’s been a lot longer than 25 years!

    Kirk Parker | 6/6/2006 03:57 AM CDT | #64477
  42. Good work, Kim, on the distinction between libertarians and conservatives: that libertarians look to maximize individual freedom, while conservatives look to what is best for society. The proper place to give priority to the individual is as the starting point for moral comprehension. Moral comprehension leads to the conservative position that right and wrong are determined by the requirements of a society that functions as well as possible in terms of promoting human welfare (the discovery of what there is to value in the world, and the securing of that value). Only pursuant to this do we arrive at individual rights as the necessary and best way to achieve advance in human welfare. In order to make progress in the discovery and pursuit of value, we must be free to make progress in the discovery and pursuit of value.

    This leaves conservatives and libertarians pretty close together, which is what creates the natural alliance. I don’t see as much of a gap between libertarians and conservatives as you do. Pretty much all the conservatives I know are pretty darned libertarian, and pretty much all the libertarians I know are pretty darned conservative. The biggest exception is the “movement” libertarians (the Libertarian Party types) who really do get fixated on individual liberties to the point where they somehow lose sight of the fact that to secure individual liberties, we first have to secure the tree of liberty. They lose so much sight that they can’t even figure out that we have to fight for liberty, and turn into anti-war pussies. As far as I am concerned, anyone who can’t fight for liberty is good for just about nothing. But as I said, I think that is limited to a pretty narrow segment of libertarians.

    Alec Rawls | 6/6/2006 04:45 AM CDT | #64478
  43. Kim,

    I’ve noticed all I have to do to be accused of being “ideologically pure” is to expect people in general, and government officials in particular, to seriously comprehend and adhere to the Framers’ words in the documents which created the USA. How terribly unreasonable of me. At the risk of you carrying out your petty threat to ban me (while I’m routinely vilified by liberals on the Internet, it’s invariably conservatives who threaten to ban me; go figure), I’ll respond to your comments:

    1. “Twenty-five years ago, you couldn’t carry a gun in this country unless you knew someone, had photos or were a LEO. Or were a criminal.” — Kim du Toit

    I’ve been openly carrying firearms in this country since 1966. At age 14, every Thursday night, I carried my Remington bolt-action .22 halfway across Salinas, CA to the local PD indoor range for target practice. I suspect you meant to write carry “concealed.” Did I already mention that words have meanings?

    As a 19 year-old soldier, I carried, concealed, a Walter PPK/S .380 on my flight to Vietnam. I carried it, concealed, every day in RVN (where it occasionally came in very handy) and on my return flight to Travis AFB, right past a BATF goon who “welcomed” us home with various threats. Years ago, as an Airborne Infantry officer in Alaska, I carried a concealed M1911A1 when I thought circumstances warranted it. I was carrying a concealed .45 Colt Combat Commander when I rescued a young woman from being robbed or worse by a couple Latino punks at the Arden Fair shopping center parking lot in Sacramento, CA in 1982. Besides a “moron,” I guess I’m also a scum-sucking criminal in your eyes, Kim, since a) I was unwilling to make the “campaign contribution” the county sheriff required for issuance of a CCW permit, and b) being “ideologically pure,” I’m not inclined to pay a LEO (crooked or otherwise) for “permission” to exercise an unalienable individual right.

    At the risk of further annoying your delicate sensibilities, my copy of the Second Amendment states in pertinent part, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” In 1803, in Marbury v. Madison, SCOTUS ruled that any law violative of the Constitution is null and void. The Declaration of Independence states individual rights are “unalienable” (that which cannot be taken away). I realize these are radical notions for most contemporary Americans, but I submit the real “criminals” are the legislators, judges, and LEOs directly responsible for enacting and “enforcing” overtly unconstitutional statutes, not lovable gun-toting libertarians who genuinely respect our supreme law of the land. FWIW, I carried a Browning Hi-Power concealed during both my trips to South Africa in 1987. That was probably a violation of some RSA statute, but the unalienable individual RKBA isn’t confined to America. 

    Ignoring the Constitution (which Republicans and Democrats find so easy), residents of Vermont were “legally” carrying concealed weapons without any permits 25 years ago. Last time I checked, Vermont was part of the USA.

    2. If you wish your remarks not to be compared with those of Hillary Clinton’s then I strongly suggest you think harder before speaking or using your keyboard. You stated the rights of “society” took precedence over individual rights. Bill & Hillary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, G.W. Bush, and similar miscreants have made careers of following such a pernicious belief. “We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.” — Hillary Clinton, 28 June 2004.

    3. I didn’t “misspeak” in my previous post. Here’s the “cut and paste” you asked for: “Only libertarians, for example, ever debate whether an individual should be allowed to own a nuclear weapon. Morons.” — Kim du Toit

    Of course, you weren’t “ranting” or “venting,” right? When the Federalists conned early Americans into scrapping the Articles of Confederation and adopting the Constitution, they piously assured the public that the federal government would only have those powers expressly delegated to it in Article I, Section 8. If the U.S. military is “allowed to own nuclear weapons” then that power can only have been delegated by individual Americans. Did I miss your explanation of how people may delegate a power they don’t possess? No, I didn’t think so.

    4. I don’t possess a “Froth-A-Meter” but you might consider getting yours recalibrated. I realize you’re embarrassed at using the word “socialists” against your political enemies when you clearly didn’t grasp what the word actually meant, but I’m hardly responsible for your lack of acumen. Also, contrary to your unfounded assertion, I read all of your post; I wish I hadn’t, but I did.

    “Find a trace of fascism” in “We don’t have a high opinion of the individual...” As folks in Canuckistan say, “too easy.” Curtailing individual liberties is an essential element of fascism. Here are examples for you from four prominent fascists: “What luck for the rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler. “There is the great silent, continuous struggle; the struggle between the State and the Individual; between the State which demands and the Individual who attempts to evade such demands. Because the individual, left to himself, unless he be a saint or a hero, always refuses to pay taxes, obey laws, or go to war.” — Benito Mussolini. “The Constitution is a radical document ... it is the job of the government to rein in people’s rights”. — Bill Clinton, 1992. “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!” — G. W. Bush, November 2005.

    5. “Today, millions of Americans carry guns for self-defense, albeit with a permit. So what? In another twenty years’ time, if we keep working at it, you’ll only need a CCW permit in NYC, Chicago and Boston. In all the other states, you’ll be allowed to carry a gun without a permit.” — Kim du Toit. You advocate Americans beg government bureaucrats for written “permission” to exercise an UNALIENABLE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT then spout “So what?” Incredible, simply incredible. If you were any more domesticated, you’d give milk. Well, you have plenty of company. Dianne Feinstein and Charles Schumer share your disdain for individual liberty and also possess CCW permits.

    6. “Sometimes, accommodation works.” — Kim du Toit. Ah, yes, the Neville Chamberlain defense. Well, if you believe in accommodation instead of insisting on your individual rights, you surely picked the correct political party. Republicans have been betraying their sworn oaths to obey the Constitution for the sake of “accommodation” during my entire life. The Republican Party platform is often a near copy of the one used a decade or two earlier by the Democrats. If you actually think the forces of “accommodation” will result in all 50 states, excluding NYC, Chicago and Boston, approving permit-free concealed carry of handguns in 20 years then you’re delusional. Thanks to folks such as yourself, I’ll be long dead or, worst yet, confined in prison by 2026, but please be sure and post then how swell things are for gun owners in San Francisco, especially for unlicensed concealed carry.

    7. Kim, you are correct there are far more of YOU than there are of ME. I’m reminded of that fact during every general election. I derive precious little comfort from this, however. Over the course of my 53 years, I’ve watched the compromisers and deceitful, oath-betraying politicians you endorse turn a relatively free republic into a burgeoning police state. Americans face a decade or more incarcerated in a gulag for merely possessing items my father could buy cheaply over the counter at a hardware or feed store as a boy. Why I would seek to curry favor with a person who exhibits contempt for the principles I revere and who calls me a “moron” is a mystery you neglected to explain.

    BannedByCowards | 6/6/2006 05:28 AM CDT | #64479
  44. Yet another thoughtful and thought-provoking essay, Kim. In defense of libertarians, though, I’d like to offer the following.

    Libertarians decide issues using the criterion: “Will it increase or decrease individual freedom?” If it decreases individual freedom, they are against it, almost regardless of the consequences to society as a whole.

    I wouldn’t say that. As I understand them (and I’ve considered myself one for most of my adult life), libertarians believe that maximizing individual freedom is good for society as a whole; as a rule, the freer the society, the better things tend to work out for everyone. They also believe that you can’t separate freedom and responsibility. The greater the personal freedom, the greater the personal responsibility. This strikes me as incompatible with libertinism. As far as I’m concerned, a libertine isn’t really free at all; he’s just a psychopath.

    That said, I must admit that the closer I get to Old Fartdom, the more I find myself, even if not agreeing with all views called conservative, at least understanding and respecting them (which is a damn sight more than I can say for any of those called liberal). 9/11 was the turning point that inspired me to start paying more attention to the world as it is, to quit worrying about the purity of my politics, and in 2004 to vote for a Republican for president for the first time in my life. On some issues, I began to understand, there damn well do seem to be differences after all between some Republicans and some Democrats; and on a couple of big issues in particular (border security and the war on Islamofascists) the Libertarian Party just lost me entirely.

    We may not share the same view of libertarianism, Kim, but I still think (at least on the big-picture issues, like a shared desire for truly Constitutionally-limited government) libertarians and conservatives have more in common than not.

    And while I’m at it, I’d like very much to thank folks like you, Tech Support, and Francis Porretto for contributing to my continuing education. Your blog and Eternity Road, especially, never fail to offer me some valuable food for thought. It was here, for example, that I encountered the expression “Don’t let the perfect become the enemy of the good.” It’s taken me some time to understand that, but I think I’m beginning to grasp its wisdom. Thank you.

    Boff's [widget] | 6/6/2006 06:46 AM CDT | #64481
  45. The People tossed out the Articles of Confederation because it was flawed. 

    “Conned the American People.”???

    If you really believe what you just posted then it falls into the category of “not trusting the mob.”

    Which is it?  The American People are smart enough and wise enough to choose a government they think best OR they’re too stupid and gullible to choose a government and they should be ruled by your conscience instead of their own?

    This is why there is stagnation on the conservative side of the aisle.  Rather than celebrating progress in the restoration of Original Intent, we have endless discussions about why we shouldn’t have had to have the debate in the first place and it isn’t really progress for our side..blah blah blah, pointing out all the flaws of what people may or may not have done 200 years ago.  Good grief.  What a pointless exercise in mental masturbation.

    “Egoism, in a broader sense, has been… presented as the source of moral action. It has been said that we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, bind up the wounds of the man beaten by thieves, pour oil and wine into them, set him on our own beast and bring him to the inn, because we receive ourselves pleasure from these acts… These good acts give us pleasure, but how happens it that they give us pleasure? Because nature hath implanted in our breasts a love of others, a sense of duty to them, a moral instinct, in short, which prompts us irresistibly to feel and to succor their distresses… The Creator would indeed have been a bungling artist had he intended man for a social animal without planting in him social dispositions. It is true they are not planted in every man, because there is no rule without exceptions; but it is false reasoning which converts exceptions into the general rule.” --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814. ME 14:141

    Man is a social animal.  We are not Lone Rangers.  We have a right to make commitments to each other and to come to compromises on fundamental issues in the social realm.  THAT IS NOT SOCIALISM.  It is the Social Compact which enabled Western Society to prevail--it is the foundation of Western Society.  To agree with an action when it is what one individual wants, but to refuse it the moment he finds someone who shares the same view and they become a group of like minded individuals, and label it “socialism” is insane.  There is no other word for it. 

    To confuse society’s actions to protect itself from the misdeeds of the few is contrary to liberty.  Society is simply the plural of the individual, acting in concert, to protect the liberties of all.

    “A nation, as a society, forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society.” --Thomas Jefferson to George Hammond, 1792. ME 16:263

    But I miss digress from the main point I wish to address in Coward’s post:  Go away.  Get your own blog.  Enjoy your freedom to spew your nonsense elsewhere.  Navel gaze about how important you are on your own dime.  We have important things to do here and we refuse to continue to be hijacked into asinine discussions that prevent us from reaching our goals to restore our society to its Original Intent.  The tolerance for your kind of libertine babble was passed a long time ago.

    Connie du Toit | 6/6/2006 07:30 AM CDT | #64483
  46. Banned,

    Here are a couple of points:

    “Americans face a decade or more incarcerated in a gulag for merely possessing items my father could buy cheaply over the counter at a hardware or feed store as a boy.”

    Your father had to face an enemy who had ICBMS pointed at us. To counter that threat, we had our Armed Forces (not the Pre-Emptive ICBM Voluntary Cooperative). We won—along the way, curtailing all sorts of individual rights, such as the freedom to espouse Communism (First Amendment). Now we face an enemy who doesn’t wear uniforms, makes fertilizer bombs (see this week’s Adventures in Canada), and has already declared their intent to terrorize us into submission by flying hijacked airliners into crowded buildings.

    But hey—let’s keep ourselves morally pure by not infringing on the Second Amendment; by all means let’s allow individuals to own nuclear weapons on that basis.

    If you don’t like the term “moronic” applied to such unrealistically-ideological behavior, allow me to suggest another: suicidal.

    That’s fine. Just don’t expect me to go along with you.

    So, if I may try to summarize your position: at no point should we ever compromise on our principles, even if that leads to potential destruction. Note that I did not use the weasel word “could” to modify the verb “leads”. There is no question about it: if Islamist terrorists had access to all the weapons guaranteed them by an unfettered Second Amendment, they would use them against us—and by “us”, I mean of course Americans.

    And if you think that our flabby, timorous set of politicians are in any way in the same totalitarian league as radical Islam, then I would suggest a visit to (say) Saudi Arabia. Have your daughter wear a miniskirt and your son dressed as an Orthodox Jew, complete with a wig of ringlets. Stand on a street corner with a New Testament and preach the Gospel. Oh, and carry a gun strapped to your waist, as is your inalienable right.

    Fach. Your kind makes me sick.

    The problem I have is that I kind of empathize with almost all your positions. I chafe at having to ask the State for permission to carry a gun, myself. When I lived in Chicago (where handguns are banned altogether), I carried a gun every single time I stepped out of the house—and every time I saw a suspicious-looking individual, my thoughts were always” “Please pick on someone else—because if I have to shoot you, I’ll go to jail for ten years.”

    It’s not a comfortable feeling; in fact, it’s harrowing. I’m not a lawbreaker (having just confessed to being one), but I placed my and my family’s safety over Richard Daley’s fear of guns. I think Chicago’s gun laws are un-Constitutional, myself, but I didn’t carry my Bulldog out of ideological reasons.

    Now I live in Texas. I have a CHL, and I can carry a handgun pretty much wherever I want. The difference in the way I feel is palpable to me.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the difference between us. You see, you’ve never really lived under tyranny, or else you wouldn’t toss words like “gulag” around in an American context. All you can see is the purity of the Constitution (which the states were “conned” into ratifying, in your opinion), and you’re blinded by that same purity. Here’s an example:

    In 1803, in Marbury v. Madison, SCOTUS ruled that any law violative of the Constitution is null and void.

    Fair enough; but given that our legal system is one of “the most recent ruling”, we also have the 1875 Cruikshank decision, which stated that the Second Amendment only protected individuals against infringement of the right to bear arms by Congress. It’s been used by GFW states like Illinois ever since.

    I hate that decision. If I felt strongly enough about it, I’d have openly defied the Chicago ban, daring the Chicago PD to arrest me. And I’d have gone to jail, and I would never have been allowed to own a gun again. In other words, I would have felt like I did in Chicago, no matter where I lived, for the rest of my life.

    You know, the last time I did something that ideological, I was 17, and living under apartheid rule. Fortunately, I incurred no lasting consequences (I was found not guilty on a technicality). Had I become a felon in South Africa, I would never have been able to come to America (felons used to lose their passports in South Africa).

    I’m sick of this. I’m sick of ideologues painting me as some crypto-fascist simply because I’m more pragmatic than they are.

    So while you carry your “unlicensed” handgun in New York City and feel good about yourself, I’ll just carry on recruiting people into the Nation of Riflemen, and trying my best to slow the slide towards totalitarianism, despite having the Libertarian Nutcase Fraternity screaming imprecations at me from the sidelines.

    I’m not going to ban you. But I am going to ignore you. Now, and in the future.

    Our conversation is at an end.

    Kim du Toit | 6/6/2006 10:24 AM CDT | #64497
  47. I wouldn’t say that. As I understand them (and I’ve considered myself one for most of my adult life), libertarians believe that maximizing individual freedom is good for society as a whole; as a rule, the freer the society, the better things tend to work out for everyone. They also believe that you can’t separate freedom and responsibility. The greater the personal freedom, the greater the personal responsibility. This strikes me as incompatible with libertinism. As far as I’m concerned, a libertine isn’t really free at all; he’s just a psychopath.

    One thing Libertarians (big-L, note) seem to frequently miss, tho, is that society has done a lot to destroy people’s sense of responsibility.  Until that returns, it’s insane to rachet up the freedom level.

    You don’t give kids widespread freedoms until they’ve proven they’ve mastered the concept of responsibility.  In fact, you also don’t do it at once.  You teach them responsibilit